My wife and I are having some serious problems with our dear Mali, Pete, and we hope someone can help supplement our new vet's advice. HISTORY: Pete was given to us about two years ago by a person whose little brother was not caring properly for him. His cage was small, his UV light was broken, and he had no heat lamp at all. Very sad. He was 2-3 years old when we got him. He was almost dead. He had been kept in a car on a freezing January night, and it took him a few days to come around even with heat and UV. It was heartbreaking. He has been a wonderful part of our lives over the last few years. We bought him a 36-inch long x 18-inch deep by 17-inch high glass cage. He has a 100-watt Repti halogen basking lamp (directly over a basking rock) and a Repti-Glo 10.0 UVB light, both of which stay on for about 12 hours each day with a timer. We also use a ceramic heat emitter that stays on all the time (located right next to his basking lamp on the one end of the cage). The basking light is located at one end of his cage, and the UVB light runs diagonally across the top of his cage, about 16 inches from the substrate suface. The substrate is millet seed. At the cooler end of the cage he has a little wood "bunker" that he likes to sleep under. We've been feeding him a mixture of high-quality greens, mixed vegetables, and a bit of fruit from time to time. We also sprinkle his food with T-Rex Uromastyx Dust. As a treat we sometimes give him crickets from the pet store. SYMPTOMS: Pete became terribly ill last week. His abdomen swelled up over the course of two days, and we immediately took him to a vet. She performed a scan and was worried that he had tumors. She asked us if we wanted to perform surgery, and we said "by all means." The surgery revealed that his bladder was very distended due to bladder stones, which she removed. She also discovered that his liver looked diseased. We have not yet received the biopsy results. They have been sent to an expert outside our state. Here is the important part: Pete was having trouble using his back legs, and we thought it might be due to the swelling of his abdomen. However, I picked him up from the vet today, brought him home, and he still is having trouble using his back legs. He also seems to have some nervous "ticks" now. I find it odd that the vet never comment on this. From what I have been reading online, these are symptoms of Metabolic Bone Disease, and the most frequent cause of this is poor husbandry. Are we doing something wrong (see description above)? However, and this is critical: I also read that MBD can be caused by diseases of organs that interfere with Vitamin D absorbtion - diseases such as liver disase, which it appears he may have. So, my non-professional diagnosis is that Pete may be suffering from MBD due to liver problems. Does anyone know what the prognosis is? We are scared for him and desperate for answers. We want to do everything in our power to take care of him and make sure that he is getting everything that he needs. As of today (when I got him home), I am syringe-feeding him about 3 ml of Oxbow Critical Care twice daily (I gave him his first feeding tonight before "lights out" - I hope I'm doing it right), and he was also prescribed .25cc of Milk Thistle per day (to aid liver function) and .1cc of Zosyn in pre-prepared syringes that we keep in the freezer and I am to use daily to give him injections into his leg muscle. All of that is fine, by I am worried about the lack of attention to possible MBD. I am going to Walgreens tomorrow to get liquid calcium (Neo-CalGlucon), as I've read that syringe-feeding them .5cc of this per day (for a 1-lb animal) for several weeks can remedy calcium problems. If he pulls through and starts eating on his own, I want to start preparing his food with Rep-Cal Phosphorus Free Calcium with Vit. D3 Ultrafine Powder. Of course, if I am correct in guessing that Pete has MBD caused by liver problems, we'll need to address that, but I don't know what we're doing wrong? Is our husbandry bad? I plan to call the vet as soon as possible to explain my "theory" here. She is relatively young and is super nice, but she mentioned that her exotic pet practice has not seen a Mali before. Any advice/criticism is welcome. Our hearts are brreaking, and we want to find answers. We certainly don't want Pete to suffer. He means the world to us. If you'd like, you may e-mail me directly at wkalkhof@kent.edu. Thank you so much, Will
Hi Will, am sorry to hear about your Mali health problems, i am heartbroken as well for one of my baby AWD that is having a bad time. fortunately for you, you seem to have a vet that take it seriously, which is not my case :lol: , which pretty much leave me on my own guessing whats the best for my baby. I dont know much to give any advice, let alone i've never seen a mali, however, i dont think you are doing anything wrong, except, a question, is there in the tank any space where your pete can get away from the lights?, from what you mention you got a ceramic light on one side and a heat lamp on the other side??, they do need to get away from the heat from time to time. the other thing is that since as a juvenile he wasnt taken care of properly and didnt have a uvb source, you are probably right and he may have MBD, but product of past negligence in his growing bones, not your fault. Vet has told me that natural sun light can not be entirely replaced by artificial lighting, so i guess it would be would if you could provide him a bit of the real mackoy sun, at least 15 to 20 min a day, what you reckon?. my baby is dragging his back legs as well, he can move them but has no much strenght in them. to top it all he has gut impaction, which apparently is related to it, calcium deficiency has caused it, and at the moment am praying that he can even digest anymore, he has no shown signs of being able to poo on his own, we help him, through massages in the tummy, i dont know what to feed him and how much, today i bought small crickets, which i spread with calcium and he still has his appettite, but does not poooooooooo, buaaaaaaaa, is so stressing, cant stop thinking about my baby. in any case i heard that MBD can be reversible, however it takes quite a time, could you post a photo to know what a mali look like?, keep us inform i am with you mate.
Hi Will, First welcome to the forum. I'm very sorry to hear about his present condition. Everything you have done so far is excellent. Although the tank is below the recommended size for a uro (4ft long) that is unimportant right now. How old is the UVB tube, if it's more than 6 months it should be changed, recommend the ReptiSUN 10.0, these are better, and it should be lowered so he can get within 6-8" of it. Can you give a run down on the actual temperatures. They should be 120-130F directly under basking lamp, warm end ambient mid 90's, coolend low 80's and a night temp no lower than 70-75F. Take him off the millet seed and use paper towel, non-adhsive shelf liner or similar, this is so he doesn't eat the millet in his present state, will be easier on his stomach. From your description it does sound like MBD, all this stems from the days before you took him on. Dont blame yourself for any of this. All reptiles do take along time to show any problems/illnesses, uro's can take longer. No more crickets, he will have a hard time digesting them. It sounds like you have a good vet so go along with her recommendations, wait for the biopsy results, then make a decision. Sadly, liver disease is never a good thing, I dont want to build you hopes up but with the continuing treatment and your loving care, he may recover. Changes to the UV and substrate will help to an extent. I would keep the handling to a minimum and allow him "timeout" to recover for the operation. I wish I could offer more, all I can do is send my best wishes and thinking of you at this time.
I am so sorry to hear about your pet as well. It's amazing how much these pets become part of our lives. I've always loved animals and nature, but when we got Pete a few years back, I never would have imagined myself driving around with a tear in my eye trying to figure out how to bring him back to health. To answer your question, the basking lamp and ceramic heat emitter are both on the same end of the tank. He has a little "bunker" on the other end where he can hide and cool off. As for natural light, there is a sky light about 8 feet above him, and he'll spend the better part of a day staring straight up at it. He gets some sun through that, but I'll definitely take him outside later today. I'm not sure if this will be of any help to you, but I just got back from Walgreens, and I was able to order a generic version of Neo-Calglucon. What I ordered is called calcionate syrup. It is basically the generic version. Both contain calcium glubionate. I am going to try syringe feeding him a few drops of this starting on Monday when it comes in, pending Vet approval, but I went ahead and at least ordered it. I too have heard that MBD is reversible, and a few weeks of calcium glubionate treatment followed by the Rep-Cal ultrafine powder on nutrient rich greens (e.g., collard greens, dandelion greends, etc.) will hopefully help. I have to run up to work for a while, but I will post a picture when I return. Thanks for your support, and good luck to you. I hope your mali starts to see some improvements. As for food, you might try syringe feeding him Oxbow Critical Care. I give Pete 3 ml twice daily. It might help your mali get back on the right track. That's what I'm hoping for. Hoping indeed. Will
Hi Bruno. Thanks for your kind words and advice. As for Pete's cage, we will definitely get him a bigger one if he starts to progress here. The one we have is actually the biggest one we could find at our local pet store, but we'll search more broadly and go on a mission to get him a bigger one. Ambient temp on the warm end is indeed right around the mid-90s, and the temp beneath his basking lamp has ranged from 110-120 degrees at school (he is a classroom animal/mascot), but now he's at home, and I have him upstairs beneath a sky light. His basking area here is consistently hovering around 120, most likely because the ambient temp is higher. The cool end right now is exactly 80, and it definitely never gets below 70 at night. I've got the millet seed out of his tank for the most part. I've left a small area on the cool end where he can dig and burrow a bit if he wants, but the rest of the cage, for now, is green cage carpet that I bought at the pet store yesterday. He can move around a lot better on this. It at least looks like it is helping him try to use his back legs. Do you think I should completely remove the millet? I just thought he might want a little bit on one end, but I can see how that might not be wise. As far as handling goes, I only handle him now to syringe-feed and administer medications, though I do sit with him a lot, hoping that it makes him feel better to have someone around. It looks like he's finally up and moving around, so it's time for food and medication. Then I'm off to work for a bit. Again, thanks so much for your advice and support. I really appreciate it. Will
Hi Will, The tank is not important right now. MBD is reversable and with all the things you are giving him will maximize his recovery. I would remove all the millet but there is no reason why you shouldn't put a small pot in tank and then he can eat some if he wishes. Mali's having short legs do sink into millet and it does make it harder for them to walk, the carpet is excellent. The temperatures sound good. You may be already aware of this, glass filters out ALL uvb, he is just seeking the light. I dont know where you live but if the outside temps get higher, then taking him outside will be of great benefit to him. Just dont leave him unattended and DONT leave him in glass tank the risk of overheating is great. Obviously you are doing everything you can to help him and I commend you on that. I really hope the lil guy pulls through this.
1hi Will again. i just wanna to say that i think you and your wife are doing great, Pete can not ask for better care. as for the UVB and glass, Bruno are you sure?, i thought the same as my 4 AWD and 1 jackie dragon tanks are just on the windows and i thought that they were getting the rays through, but the vet told me that UVB can not get through, sorry i really dont know, so far i spend whenever i can outside lying with Spot (my sick baby) on the sun, he hide on me whenever is taking too much, for about 20 min. and also i have an outside cage where they all hang around together, however i have to try and keep the sicky one separate as much as possible, so please let me know the facts about the UVB, cause i really dont know. cheers
Hi crusty, May be I should have used American-English and not English-English :lol: What I ment is glass stops ALL uvb, I have tested this with a solar-meter. Plastic and acrylic also stop UVB, mesh will also reduce the UVB, depending on type. A 1/4 inch mesh will reduce UV by up to 35% or more, specially the painted ones. This is why it's important NOT to have anything between the UV lamp and reptile. Another interesting thing is, that nautural sunlight produces a reading on a solar INDEX meter, thats the intensity of UVB, of around 2 to 12 depending on country, 12 being in the tropics on a clear day at noon. Average is around 2 to 5, a lot of UVB lamps put out a reading on average of 3.7, so are much the same as natural daylight. A lot of excellent information about UVB and reptiles can be found here at uvguide.co.uk. The site is being updated with all the latest testing so if it's slow or doesn't load please be patient.
Thanks! I just got home and fed Pete. He looks okay, but it's so hard to see him like this. It's harder with my wife away on a trip, too - psychologically and in terms of taking care of Pete. I'm afraid that I'm stressing him out too much when I feed him. It's a chore to get him to open his mouth to accept the syringe ending. But when he finally does, he gobbles up the Oxbow. I'm being careful to put it in toward the side of his mouth and point the tip outward so he doesn't choke, and so far so good. I think he likes Oxbow, he's just stubborn about opening his mouth, which is totally understandable. My big concern is that his liver isn't working right (the underlying major issue as discovered by the vet), and as a consequence he's not going to be able to use any calcium he ingests, or so I've read. I guess only time will tell. The biopsy results should be in by mid-week if I'm lucky. I'm waiting for the Milk Thistle to kick in to at least help his liver. That would be wonderful. Thank god my wife can't see Pete like this. She is a high school biology teacher and had to leave on her annual class trip to Andros Island in the Bahamas the day I picked him up to bring him home. The trip is a wonderful learning experience for everyone who goes, especially the students. This year she has an underwater camera case, so I can't wait to see the pictures. Alas, feeding Pete alone is quite a chore. FYI, our vet suggested using a rubber spatula from the kitchen to help. In fact, it does help - a lot! Pete kind of starts to bite it when you gently put the soft point of it into the side of his mouth, and then I can slip the syringe in and squirt a little bit of food. I repeat this about 10 times, but he's eating it and there's not too much left on my shirt. :lol: All of you guys have been so great, and I'm really appreciative of all of your warm thoughts and helpful advice. And Bruno, I live in Northeast Ohio, and it has just started to get very nice outside. Today it was in the mid-70s (or more) with plenty of sun. I have the day off tomorrow, so if the weather holds, you can bet that Pete and I will sit outside for 20-30 minutes to he can soak up the sun. I'm sure he'll love it. I've taken him outside before, and he loved it then. Oh yes...I did talk to the vet briefly this afternoon, and she said that mixing in a few drops of the calcium supplement with this food would be fine. That'll start Monday when I pick it up from Walgreen's. Pic coming soon. They're on my wife's computer, so I'll logon to hers after dinner and find a nice one of him. He's such a great pet, and I hope he makes it. He had such a hard early life, and I feel like he deserves a nice long life. I've started moving into the anger phase about his early treatment by his previous owner. I just wish he had at least given him the bare essentials. I'm not sure why people even bother getting animals and pets if they don't want to take care of them. Very frustrating.
Hi Will, It has to be stressful for you as well as Pete, an extra pair of hands is always useful. The spatula is a great idea, I use a rubber window wedge. Your method of feeding is great. WOW, the mid 70's, wish it was like that here is the UK, we are struggling with the mid 50's :lol: That should be fine taking him outside, nothing like natural sunlight, bet he will love it. The longer you can stay outside the better as long as he doesn't get/feel cold. I just wish everyone took as much care and interest of their pets as you do. I couldn't agree more with that statement, people get these specialized exotic pets just because it's "cool" to own one, with no research or prior knowledge. We get a lot of posts here on forum from people who have got these animals, some is really bad advice from petshops, other it's just impulse buying, the end result is same, a sick animal. Some respond to our replies others simply disappear, we always wonder what happened to the poor things, as you say very frustrating. I have sent you an email with a copy of a post I made describing how a reptile manufactures D3 and calcium, it's really designed to explain how supplements with added D3 should be used with caution, but shows how reptiles make their own D3 etc, hope it's of some use to you. On a brighter note, when your dear wife gets back with those underwater photo's, post some in the Photo section of forum, I'm sure a lot of people will be thrilled to see them.
thanks Bruno for all the info, my mistake, i re read you message , english problems of mine, it is second language for me :lol: i live in Australia though. i,ve being trying to get that liquid calcium that you mention Will, but not success, geee only found for dogs, supposse is not the same. what lizards you've got Bruno?
Hi again, Will may i ask you if you Mali dropped any hard thing that was meant to be wee?. i ask you because i just lift my water dragon and he dropped from his cloacal the white stuff that is meant to be their urine, however it was hard solid, and then poo dark stuff, i read that is a sympton of dehydration, but i doubt he is, his skin goes straight back to normal when i pinch it, like the vet told me. is that the same problem that you mali have? may be it is a stone, geee i wish i have a vet to rely on. anybody can help me please?. the vet said that he cant do nothing more, but just wait and see if he recovers, but he only gave him paraffin, i would like him to have a calcium shot or something, i dont know am pretty sure there is something else that can be done. unfortunately there isnt many vets around that knows about reptiles. i dont mean to be a pest, am sorry, am just desperate for answers so i can help my baby. well one thing makes me happy though, i could say that he poo on his own pretty much, therefore he has not paralized his digestive system.
Hi Bruno, Yeah, this forum is an incredible resource! I'm glad I found it. Of course, it's overcast today. Go figure. So we won't be venturing outside unless is clears up and gets warmer. Pete isn't looking so good today. I am very worried about him. He just looks tired, and maybe uncomfortable. I am going to call the vet tomorrow for advice when she's back in the office. Perhaps this is normal after they've come through an ordeal like abdominal surgery, but he still hasn't gone to the bathroom, and the vet said to bring him back in if he doesn't by Tuesday or Wednesday. I'm going to call her tomorrow if he doesn't look any better. I just can't stand to see him like this. But this was her fear - that he has severe liver problems, and that it would be okay for us to hope for the best, but expect and fear the worst. For myself, I just need to know if this is normal after the kind of surgery that he had. If it's not, then we'll simply have to wait for the biopsy results. The hardest part for me, though, is to think that he may be suffering. Again, I hope this is just a normal recovery from invasive surgery. I'll know tomorrow. And thanks for sending me the piece by e-mail, Bruno. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in my reply, I think the file had some kind of a problem as I was unable to open it in either Word 2007 or Wordpad. Do you have an HTML or PDF version? I'm anxious to read it. I'm really excited for my wife to return. I hope her new underwater case for her camera works. I will definitely post some pictures when she gets back. We do everything with pictures on her computer, so I'm not going to mess with it until she returns. Plus I'll have some cool underwater photos to share then, too. Some might be depressing, though. One of the reasons they take the kids there is so they can see the destruction that is occurring to the third largest barrier reef in the world. For kids who are "on the fence" about climate change, seeing turns to believing. I guess its pretty bad. Anyway, no need for more depressing talk. I am going to continue to monitor Pete today. I'm going to feed him here in a little bit after he's had a chance to relax a bit here this morning. I continue to hope that he improves...
Hi crusty, Pete never showed anything along the lines of those symptoms. His abdomen swelled up like a balloon because his bladder was severely distended, which is why we took him in. That was the first sign of any trouble. He, however, hasn't had a bowel movement, and I am worried that his digestive system may not be working as it should. I will inquire about this tomorrow. As far as treatment goes, you might try getting your hands on some Oxbow Critical Care feeding formula and also a liquid calcium supplement that has calcium glubionate in it. I've heard that it is sold as Neo-Calglucon or Calciquid, but I found a generic version called Calcionate Syrup. The Walgreen's pharmacist found it in her product book and ordered it for me. It comes in tomorrow. My vet confirmed that I could mix a bit of it in with Pete's food. I've heard others say that .5cc per kg of animal weight is the appropriate dose. I have a smaller syringe (with no needle) that I use to deliver medicines, and I have a bigger one (about 12cc) that I use to administer food, 3ml at a time. I'm sure you could get them at a pharmacy. I'm not sure where to get the Oxbow Critical Care formula, though. But I'm sure a quick Google search would help you locate it. I wish I could help you more. I know how traumatizing this must be for you.
Hi Will, Pete has had MAJOR surgery and like a human will feel vey weak and down after it, so his behaviour is normal. Your vet summed it up well, live in hope but fear the worst. It will be a hard decision to say enough is enough, we never want to loose a loved pet but sometimes we have to put OUR feelings aside and think if they are suffering. I've been in your position more than once with some of my rescues. 2006 was my worst year ever, I lost 5 in 3 months, I was ready to give up keeping reptiles but I'm still here with 8 of them. I'm sure your wife will bring some good pictures back, posting them in the photo section, may well awaken a few people to the destruction us humans are doing. Anyway, you have new email in PDF format hope it works. As always my thoughts are with you during this tough time.
Yes, the PDF worked! Thank you! Very educational. Sorry to hear about your losses. One his hard enough. I can't imagine losing 5 in 3 months. Terrible. Just in the last few years we've taken in animals that others have given up. We have Pete, our mali, two corn snakes (Dorah and Diego), and two chinchillas (Bill Johnson and Frank Smith). With the chinchillas, they have so much personality I felt that they deserved last names. : ) This is the first time we've really had something go wrong, and I wasn't prepared for it. It could just be my imagination, but Pete looks content right now. I'm learning that I can't judge how he'll do for the day before noon. It takes him a while to really get going. He's basking now, and his back legs actually look a tad better to me - they seem to be in a natural position for once. I hope this isn't a fluke. It's killing me waiting for that liver biopsy. But I'll keep doing all that I can in the meantime. BTW, I see you're from the UK. I was there a long, long time ago on a vacation with my parents, but I believe I was in first or second grade, so I don't remember much of it. I remember the cool things that a first-grader would remember: The cool black taxi cabs, the guards with the "big hats" and "cool guns" at Buckingham Palace, and the bobbies. And of course I remember the "weird food." : ) But now I would love to go back. One of my favorite musicians, Jamie Cullum, is from Essex, and now I'm old enough to enjoy a traditional pub. In fact, of the many exchanges I have had over the years in my profession, I've enjoyed those that I've had with my British friends and colleagues the most. I think my attitude toward things fits nicely with the British way. Many of my intellectual heroes from from the UK too - including Richard Dawkins. So, hopefully one day I'll be able to visit. Anyway, I don't want to blather. Thanks again for the PDF! Will
Crusty, I found a product in Australia called Calcium Sandoz Syrup Novartis. Its around the 4th product down on this page: http://www.shopsafe.com.au/merchants/vet_p...m/nutrition.htm It has calcium glubionate in it, but it also has calcium lactobonate. I'm not sure about the latter. But you could ask your vet. Take care, Will
than you guys, i'll try and fintd those. i gonna take him to the vet again today see that they at least do an x'ray on him. starting to piss me off the lack of knowledge in a country full of reptiles, doesnt make sense doest it?. i rescued his mother took care of her and then realize she was pregnant then i took care of the eggs,seen them being born, looked after them to the best of my knowledge ever since, i love them to pieces mate. thank you very much. bless you lizards
Ok, this is a bit "Off topic" but may lighten the mood a little Talking of the "black London taxi's" I drove one for the last 8 years before I retired, incredible vehicles. They are used all over the country not just in London these days. What do you mean "weird food" , you can't beat Faggots in onion gravy with mash and veg, great meal. Then there's breakfast, sausage, bacon, fried egg, black pudding, fried slice with baked beans, that would keep you going all day. Not forgetting the British fish and chips, wrapped in greasy paperbag with salt and vinegar on, walking down street eating them out of a sheet of news paper. Then there's the traditional Yorkshire Sunday lunch, a huge yorkshire pudding filled with gravy and veg, which was served first then followed by the meat with gravy, the object being was to fill your guests with pud and veg so you didnt have to serve much meat as it was very expensive in those days. There's nothing weird about us Brits :lol:
Yeah, good luck with everything! Keep me/us posted on how things work out! I'll be rooting for your little buddy! Will
