can i c some purple tiger morph pics please?!

Ill give that thread a read, I still stand bye my statement that theese problems dont seem to be arising as much in the UK, but thats probly due to the fact that the uk prob breeds 10 thousand or so a year were as the USA prob goes into the hundreds of thousands. If what your all saying is correct though, theres not much point going back 5 gen to see were it came from if there all from the same stock, as the only way would to import more Beardies from OZ wich aint gona hapen legally is it, although i dont know how long it will be untill some start to apear....

 

I think for the time being, the babies were ok. I don't know if any other future health problems arose from it, though I'd assume it's likely. We all advized she sell them as pet-quality only, and let the new owners know their history so they don't get bred again. That was kind of the last we heard from her. :?

I think in your case it does sound like a kink from an injury, rather than a genetic deformity.

 

Will it grow out though or will he be stuck with this bend? Not that l mind if as long as it isn't causing him any grief as it gives him character and if any of my babies don't go it will probably be him but l don't mind keeping him anyway! lt's going to be hard enough parting with any of them! lol! Anyway l will let you go back to your debate! lt's starting to get me confussed! Sorry to intrude! And thanks Kephy!

 

I doubt it will grow out. If it's a kink it's probably gonna stay. But if it isn't bothering him it can only add character.

 

Oh good! Well l know it's an odd name for a beardie but his name is spots as he has spots in his first 3 circles on his back and 2 on his nose and he is probably going to stay with me! So if the main bend is a break can it not be fixed? Sorry l forgot to ask this before! And thanks for this kephy, you're a star!

 

You know how in reptiles sometimes the treatment is worse than the problem? I think if it is a break or kink of some sort, and it isn't causing any problem for him, it's better to leave it than to put him through any treatments to straighten it out. Though I'm no vet and I don't know if there may be a non-invasive way of fixing it, if there is I've never heard of one. If it were a leg or something that was effecting his ability to move around, I might think differently.

 

Oh, ok then! lt doesn't seem to be affecting him in any way and all 8 of them are eating now aswell so happy there! Oh the other 2 eggs hatched this morning aswell! oo l really had ought to be putting this in my baby topic shouldn't l, sorry again, l'm still taking over the thread!

 

ok for a start i have produced one baby with a perfect corkscrew tail. And i know why this is. Inbreeding? No - my female laid a clutch of eggs, and laid a second clutch 4 weeks later (i did not breed her in this period understand). So she had not really recovered enough from laying her first clutch, even though i had fed her well and given her plenty of calcium and vitamins in the meantime. In my opinion (which i admit is not always right) tail defects are much more likely to result from not feeding the mother up/lack of calcium during egg development than a genetic abnormality.

people are just too quick to blame inbreeding for all the problems.

 

I am with you there jo, inbreeding is something which has and does happen, accidentaly or otherwise. But certain problems aren't always due to this.

 

Quick question here. No beardies have been allowed out of AUS for a while yeah? So how many were originaly allowed out? And how many to each continent? Just seems that in the US inbreeding is suddenly a hot topic, whereas here its still a sideline. We have no papers, we don't trace back generations, we don't seem to have a prob with redneck lizards yet. Sure we probably will eventually, but nobody seems that concerned yet. Maybe its because we're a small country, to us travelling half the length of our whole island isn't a problem to get an animal. Plus regular imports from the US among other places helps replenish our bloodlines, yet I rarely hear of the US importing UK beardies to help theirs.

I'm prob missing a lot here, just what I see, but it still seems a bit weird. If the US is so worried about bloodlines, why not import more UK beardies to help out? Or other countries stocks? The UK has a small population of reptiles, but I know of many breeders constantly on the lookout to other countries to get more specimens. Does anyone that side of the pond do this, or just rely on a few generations of paperwork and use US ones? And at the end of the day, how are you sure the paperwork is accurate? I could sell a hundred beardies and say all are from the same parents, or all are from random sets of adults I have. How would you know?

Sorry if I'm a bit off, just seems people are jumping down Shauns throat because he doesn't follow US (apparent) standard practice. I'm sure most countries dont?

 

hi can i just say thank you to the people backing me and just ask if there is any uk breeders out there who do keep lineage paper work could you please post as i have only heard of this happening in the U.S and would like to know if it does happen in the U.K at all
thanks again shaun

 

Man I wish Cheri would get in on this she has the best histroy of BDs I have seen.

 

i have never kept paper work - or been given any by people i have purchased beardies off/ Maybe it would be a good idea to start doing this. But as tek-monkey says, who's to say that people do this accurately. I have 6 beardies, some are related, some are not. I hatched out a male and female from my eldest two beardies. I could easily breed these together and say that the female had in fact mated with my totally unrelated male. Who would ever know? Now i would never do this - there is no need as i wouldn't mate the brother and sister - but there are people out there who are unscrupulous. I have come across some of these people myself. And paperwork would make very little difference to these people.

I agree with everything you have said tek-monkey. We are pretty careful about inbreeding here, i often see dragons advertised that have been imported from the US or germany. It is very hypocritical to inbreed so intensely then tell other people they can't do the same because of the risk of inbreeding depression.

 

Hypocritical? That's nice. This conversation has been pretty civil, but if you start throwing words like that around that can offend people it will get nasty quick.

Firstly, we do import from the UK and Germany. Germany has excellent standards for breeding, that's why much of their stock got the nickname "german giants." German giants are bred into the US stock very often. Importing from the UK is not as popular, I'm no expert but maybe it has something to do with the nonchelant attitude towards bloodlines and inbreeding that I've noticed a lot as of late from the UK? (not directed at you just in general) And the fact that we all share a lot of the original breeding stock, so it wouldn't do much good if your stock isn't incredible like the stock in germany. Especially if the ones we saw on that website are representative of the average breeding stock over there. Curious, what is the average weight and length of your breeders?

Hypocritical? No. Maybe it's just that we learned from out mistakes and are trying to share and educate. Yes maybe we had problems a lot sooner than you guys because of the excessive rate of breeding over here, but you guys share a lot of the importing WC problems we do, and if you don't learn from our mistakes then eventually you'll have a lot of the same problems too (if you don't already). Maybe you don't need to be as strict about it as we are (maybe you do I don't know), but you could at least take it to heart. It's everyone's problem. We aren't trying to be jerks about it, we care because we made a mistake and we don't want to see others do the same. It's not that we inbred "intensly," it's that we, like everyone (the UK and Germany too) did not have a lot of original stock to work with, but we mistakingly approached it with the same attitude we approach breeding so many other reptiles. Considering how common it is for inbreeding in reptiles to preserve colors and morphs, it's important for people to know it isn't ok for this species. Not if you want it to last.

As for keeping paperwork, yes there may be a lot of shady people out there but that's why we have communities and respectable breeders who we know are up to standard because they care and they have a good reputation. If you get involved with your local breeding communities it's pretty easy to sort out the bad seeds. You don't just deal with any shmo who has a couple of dragons he threw together.

And finally, just because you had one curly tail from improper nutrition does not discount my story and mean every single time it happens that is why. There are a lot of different health problems that share symptoms, it's not always one problem and one alone that can cause a symptom. This lady had pretty good husbandry otherwise if I recall correctly, and curly tails are known to be a common defect from inbreeding over here. That is why 100% of her babies had deformed tails.

Now I'm done with this for a while because I'm going out of town for the weekend. I've called in the expert on the subject and I hope she will post soon. Until then lets keep it nice, ok? I don't want to come back and see this spiral out of control like the last thread.

 

i have heard of lineage in the uk.
i haven't personally bought from a breeder, but i did read about it when researching breeding. Since i have NO knowledge of elmos background, the only lady in his life will be me! its not worth the risk.
I'm not very clued up on all this inbreeding, but people keep saying it takes many generations etc. but if you don't know the lineage, then you don't know if your the 1st degree of inbreeding for the 15th degree of inbreeding.