Extensive Sav monitor care guide needed

Discussion in 'Monitors & Tegus' started by wearentfree420, Apr 28, 2009.

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  1. drgrey

    drgrey Embryo

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    Statements without substantiation are the issue i've been declaiming.
    If unconstrained by the requirement of validation or even attribution, there is no limit to how wild the ideas can get and there's no value that can be ascribed to them beyond gossip. In this case, it's mostly malicious gossip.

    Show data on health issues or out the door.
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. justkev

    justkev Hi :) Staff Member

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    Seriously... Kaplan? We are still talking about her?


    Drgrey... Your input is greatly appreciated.. Would it be possible for you to not come across as a complete "holier than thou, monitor God"? People here just want to learn and this is a place of discussion.

    I'd appreciate it.
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. sidbarvin

    sidbarvin Embryo

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    Any and all claims made by the rational folks posting on this thread are substantiated daily on a multitude of message boards and various pieces of scientiffic litterature available via the internet. It's not my job to do the homework of others. The original poster has access to the same information we all do and a mind of his own to decide for himself how he'd like to keep his animal based on his own ideals and sense of logic.

    You have offered no more than a bunch of off topic, slanderous commentary aimed at an individual who has done nothing more than offer beneficial information in an effort to improve upon the sorry state people like yourself perpetuate within this hobby.

    Let me guess, you were highly offended at the comments on Mr. Walsh's site in reference to the youtube "herp culture", hahaha. Some of us are in this thing for reasons other than personal notoriety.
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. allergenic

    allergenic Embryo

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    Thanks Roger, thank God for the internet. Monitor keeping is worlds different now than it was in the mid 1990s when we only had bad Usenet newsgroups to work from.

    I was able to spend some time on the site in the past 24 hours, and have made substantial improvements. Taking kaffir2's criticism, I've also included sufficient sources, including reference for the proper statistics from the CITES database. I also cited estimates as estimates. Hopefully this will give more credibility to the site than it had when I made my quick first revision, and give references to back up the already accurate information.

    It's true that some of us are in this for the animals and not for personal gain. I pay actual money out of my own pocket to host that site and other informational sites I have (blapticadubia.org, for example), asking nothing of anyone, and hoping only to do some good.

    Thanks for your reply, it's good to see you on here.
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. bruno

    bruno Moderator

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    Hi,
    OK, I agree Kaplan's site is dated and more modern techniques are being used.

    Mr Walsh has been mentioned a few times now so how about a link be posted here for all to see.

    I for one to like to read it.
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. allergenic

    allergenic Embryo

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    Mr. Walsh = savannahmonitor.org
     
  12. sidbarvin

    sidbarvin Embryo

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    No Bill, the thanks is owed to you. We've been discussing how someone should do something to get this information out beyond the participants on a few fora, and someone fillally stepped up and did it rather than just talking about it. You have my support 100%.
    Having only just short of four years ago becomming connected to the web, the overall health and wellbeing of my varanids has improved in a huge way as a result of putting to use what I've learned.
     
  13. drgrey

    drgrey Embryo

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    Because there are no comparisons of diet over short or long term with the bosc,
    because there is no collection of data on the variables of husbandry,
    because there is no collection of data on growth rates of bosc,
    because there is no collection of longevity data on the bosc,

    all websites providing husbandry information about the bosc are perforce collections of anecdotes flavored by an individual's experience.
    There are no experts on the bosc because there is virtually nobody who has done the preliminary work of collecting any objective data.

    Your best bet is to seek out long term owners of bosc monitors who can show and tell what they did and what result they have.
    Try to find a reptile club near you and meet real owners who experience the same concerns in real life.
    Always demand proof. You are entitled to it. There are many phony experts out there.
     
  14. bruno

    bruno Moderator

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    Drgrey,
    In principal I agree, every caresheet, regardless of species, and the majority of books written are based on a persons,
    1) knowledge they have gained over many years
    2) personal experiences and what works for them.

    Which you state here,
    You then advocate precisely the same thing,
     
  15. drgrey

    drgrey Embryo

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    It's not the same thing, Bruno-
    the key words are 'long term bosc owners' and 'show and tell'.
    The distinction is between first hand experience and regurgitation.

    To further clarify, it is entirely appropriate and valid to say 'i did this and this happened'. That is information.
    It is entirely inappropriate to proclaim that somebody else should do this or that- on faith.

    If I must be specific, it will just make work for you to edit.

    A person who has never owned a bosc should not be automatically considered a competent source for advice on their keeping.
    A person who can not explain the reasons for what he thinks may not have any and/or may not be thinking.
    Intentions are not product and have no quality control whatsoever.
    Hearsay is the wrapper of an empty box.

    Next to direct experience, seeing somebody else's work is the best possible.
    Hearing somebody proclaim on subjects he is completely unqualified is all too common. Question such a person and you will find that such proclamations are defended by intimidation - that's the hallmark because there is nothing else there but bluff.

    I own bosc monitors and i can do show and tell, but it is beyond my competence to advise another person what he should do with his own. I think there is nobody on this planet competent to do that and nobody in the universe has the right.
    I am limited to presenting my experience only. If you don't choose to call it 'humility', then 'lack of pretension' will do. I don't speak for others, either. I grant that each individual has his own mind to make up as he sees fit and i traffic in values, not pretense. It is no coincidence that I have things to show and tell as a result of the values i pursue because I don't settle for regurge - i stick my nose in and find out. That single thing makes a world of difference.

    I am writing a book titled Raising Your Sav but it won't be ready until 2010. It will not contain any advice- it will be pure show and tell. Almost nobody will buy it because keeping monitors does not have broad appeal. It will be distributed as part of a package to those selected to home a pedigreed bosc.
     
  16. allergenic

    allergenic Embryo

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    In the scene from the film "The Exorcist" during which the priests were performing the actual exorcism, the demon was on its worst behavior. It was babbling nonsensical insults such as "Your mother is made of mayonnaise". If you notice, the priests performing the exorcism did not engage the demon, they didn't go twelve rounds arguing as to whether the priest's mother was, indeed, made of mayonnaise.

    The great thing about this thread is that despite kaffir2's circular mudslinging, at least 3 sources have been suggested. Kaplan's site, savannahmonitor.org, and the Repticzone forum (though I die inside a little bit every time I suggest that). The OP is free to utilize all sources, and decide which one they would like to follow. If one does not work, follow another. Free will enables us to choose whatever we'd like.

    Dr. Grey/kaffir2, I must offer you a bit of thanks. Your rampant dissent and character assassination has given me numerous ideas on how to present the same information we've mentioned, in a way that causes the least controversy and polar response. The increase of the likelihood the information will go over well will also increase credibility and dissemination as opposed to decreasing it. Your insults have done me a great service.

    Regards,
    Bill
     
  17. reptileranger

    reptileranger Embryo

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    Here's a good link at proexotics: monitor caresheet

    Bottom line look at many sources and do what you think is the best.
     
  18. scotyjp

    scotyjp Embryo

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    WOW...i am speachless. Any owners of a Bosc older than 5 years old??

    Scott
     
  19. wearentfree420

    wearentfree420 Embryo

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    I'm curious as to why everyone hates kaffir2/drgrey's info(other than maybe some comments)

    I watched a few of his monitor vids and they seem very healthy and docile monitors.
     
  20. justkev

    justkev Hi :) Staff Member

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    This made me laugh :D and it's quite true!
     
  21. sidbarvin

    sidbarvin Embryo

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    Here is an excerpt from what he called his "training logs" from a few years back. When other varanid enthusiasts got wind of it he recieved a huge amount of scorn , for good reason, obviously so he quickly edited them out. There were those who saved the documents in their original form. He'll deny it, and go on a tieraid of verbal abuses as a result of this post as he usually does when he is exposed for what he is, but no matter. Many of us are used to it . It's pretty much self explanitory. Blatant animal abuse is what it is. Without going into much deatil, drgrey is not a doctor, nor is his understanding of monitor behavior what he would like people to think. His monitors seem docile as a result of gross obesity and being kept in an environment much too cool and lacking in the proper tools. His track record is one of the worst around, as he has killed more monitors than he has kept alive. His interest lies in personal notoriety and youtube ratings more so than the welfare of his animals. The husbandry outlined in Bill's as well as Robyn's (proexotics) comes as a result of much scientific study and decades of keeping these animals in captivity. Kaffir2/drgray is trying to sell the idea that monitors can become "dog tame" as a result of some revolutionary training methods he, himself "poineered".
    The following was indeed authored by drgrey, (aka, danceswithsavs, greycz, Kaffir2, gabb13, among others).
    Click to enlarge the image and it's much easier to read.
    [​IMG]
     
  22. justkev

    justkev Hi :) Staff Member

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    closed
     
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