Feeding advice

Discussion in 'Monitors & Tegus' started by dekor, Sep 18, 2007.

  1. dekor

    dekor New Member

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    Hiya, I have had my bosc for a few weeks now. He was around 4 months old when I got him and is currently around 20-25 cm in length.

    For diet I have been giving him 6 crickets a day and every other day 6 meal worms and once a week a table spoon of cat food. This was what my friend at the pet shop recommended to me.

    Just thought I'd check this is the correct amount and I'm not overfeeding him.

    He getting bigger already belly wise so don't want him getting too fat, wonder if they do fat camps for monitors?
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. Varanus99

    Varanus99 New Member

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    It's very difficult to overfeed a growing monitor. When they are juvies they eat like pigs and grow like weeds. While its true you can overfeed an adult, its very rare that a juvie will overeat and get too fat PROVIDED they have the correct temperatures and enough room to move about.

    When it comes to insects like crickets I would just feed him as much as he wants until he no longer shows an interest in food. Its impossible to say exactly how many and its not an exact science. Just feed him until he is full. Im not crazy about mealworms to be honest and hes going to outgrow those very quickly if he hasnt already so I wouldnt even bother. You could try some superworms if you like.

    I wouldnt bother with the cat food. Its not a very good food source. You're better off sticking to whole prey items. In a pinch if you cant get whole food I think a better choice would be fresh ground turkey. Instead of the cat food I would get him started on some pinkie mice. And then gradually move him up to larger mice as he grows.

    When he becomes an adult or even a sub-adult and is eating several mice at a clip or small rats you can start keeping an eye on him to make sure he doesnt get too fat. But again, monitors kept properly can eat a LOT and not get fat. Of course if a 3' monitor is crammed into a tiny cage, kept too cool and overfed you're going to have problems. Im not suggesting you're doing that just stating a point.

    I know a lot of people are concerned with overfeeding their monitors. I read that a lot. I think more people are actually underfeeding their baby and juvie monitors. Baby monitors need to eat often and quite a bit. Heat'em and feed 'em :(
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. dekor

    dekor New Member

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    Brilliant, thank you for your advice. Didn't expect such a brilliantly detailed post! Well I am thinking pinkies might be a good idea. How many pinkies should I feed him a week, if so how many crickets and how often, sorry to be a pain! Want to make sure everything is perfect for him! Already considering chaning his substrate as he is currently on beech chips and he definately is a digger. Thinking of using soil as heard a few sites suggest this. If you know anything better let me know! Once again thank you for your advice.
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. Varanus99

    Varanus99 New Member

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    Please do not think yourself a pain I dearly love talking about monitors :(

    Ok, I wish I could give you precise numbers on how many food items to feed but unfortunately I can not. There are too many variables. I do know that a Bosc is a hearty eater as compared to say a tree monitor. Lets do the crickets first. You can feed him as many crickets as you like and it will do him no harm I assure you. What I do with my baby monitors is just put crickets in there until they are no longer hungry. You can feed him insects every day.

    Now there is no hard and fast rule as to how often to feed rodents as opposed to insects. When he gets larger his diet will be just about exclusively rodents. But for now if you want to use insects as the base of the diet thats fine. I would suggest feeding pinkies once or twice a week. As far as how many you will have to experiment. At his size I am guessing he could easily handle a few. Try giving him one and see how he reacts to a second. He may ignore it which means he is full. He may assault it which means I am still hungry more food, Daddy. Also its going to depend on the size of the pinks. A 1 day old pink is quite a bit smaller than a 3 day old pink. You'll get the idea soon enough. If your nervous just be cautious and use several small food items instead of one large one. That gives you more control and easier on the monitor. Truth be told they quite capeable of wolfing down some very large prey but it doesnt hurt to be cautious.

    Juvies can be fed daily. As they get larger they will eat larger meals and may not be interested in food every day. But they might. However for adults an every other day schedule seems to work.

    Im afraid Im not sure what beech chips are. Im going to assume that is some type of wood chip. Wood chips generally do not work that well with monitors. You are correct you have a digger on your hands so soil would be a better idea. Slightly moist. If you grab a fistful in your hand and squeeze it the soil should clump with no water squeezing out. That way it is slightly moist but not soaking wet. That should provide a good medium that will hold a burrow. If it crumbles through your hand like dust it is too dry. It will need to be fairly deep in order for the lizard to make a burrow. At his size 8-12" should do. If that is not possible make it as deep as you can and place a piece of flat cork bark on the surface. He will most likely excavate under it and make his own burrow.

    I mix a small amount of sand in my dirt to create a sandy soil. This way when I add water it doesnt turn into mud and it holds a burrow nicely. But, once again, you will have to experiment a bit to find what works for you. There is nothing wrong with using straight soil if you find a good one that will hold a burrow.

    Since you've been doing some research Im guessing you have a hot side and a cool side. Try to provide some hiding places...meaning cork bark flats, plywood stack, what have you...on both side. And as long as we're on the topic are you familar with Retes stacks? Those are plywood stacks placed under the heat lamp that provide an elevated basking platform as well as hiding places of various temperatures to allow thermoregulation. If you already know that I wont bore you with details but if you would like more info I can provide it.
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. dekor

    dekor New Member

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    Christ, you know your stuff! Well he currently only has about 3 inches of chips. Know anywhere good to order soil from? Guessing garden soil is a no no!

    He is a hungry little bugger and isn't afraid to stare at me untill I feed him.

    Well in viv at moment he has a cave which he loves and on top of the tank is a wooden arch which he can climb on to be nearer heat lamp. Currently using a 100w Ceramic bulb. Need to get a heat meat I think. Also going to provide another form of shelter in his cool area but he seems pretty happy in hot end.

    He had his first bath today (other than the swimming in his water bowl). Seemed pretty happy. Probably looking at a 5ft tank at end of year and will make it pretty deep for plenty of borrowing.

    On the plus side he is rather tame, imagine it helps he was captive bred. Can hold him now and he only squirms slightly. He is very energetic and always running around during day.
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. Varanus99

    Varanus99 New Member

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    Naaaaay I've just been playing with lizard for a long time...

    Garden soil is not great since it usually contains fertilizers and other junk you want to avoid. A better choice would be organic topsoil. Try to get one that is basically just dirt. No need to special order this you can find it anywhere. Or, if you live in an area where you have access to clean dirt (clean dirt?) you can just dig up your own. But you will have to sift out the rocks, sticks, bugs, etc. Riverbeds are a popular choice. Good, clean dirt there, lol. But if that is not reasonable store bought topsoil can work just fine. Thats what I use. Mixed with a little playsand.

    Hes got an elevated spot thats good. Just to hit on the Retes stack for a second since its one of my favorite things. Its plywood boards with spacers in between to create a stack. This is then placed under the heat lamp. Now you got a whole range of temperatures. Obviously hottest at the top and cooler as he moved down the stack. The spaces should be just big enough for the lizard to squeeze into. They love that.

    Pics speak louder than words. About halfway down the page behold the glory that is the Retes stack:

    http://www.proexotics.com/FAQ2.html#23

    That is a rather large one. They dont have to be that big. Mine are 6-7 levels.

    Good idea to check your temps at the basking spot, hot side and cool side. You should shoot for a basking spot of about 130-140 degrees, a hot side of various temps between 90-100 and a cool side sliding down to 75-80 or so. A night time drop will do no harm I just wouldnt let it fall much below 70.

    Be cautious with heat mats. Many of them get way too hot. Lizards dont seem to understand "belly heat" as well as they do overhead heat. As long as your basking/hot side temps are good I doubt you need it. Unless the room hes in is absolutely freezing which is not a great idea anyway. If you do decide to go with a heat mat make sure you get a rheostat or thermostat to hook up to it and adjust the temperature accordingly. Sometimes you can get one that is dead on right out of the box which is great but more ofthen than not you will have to dial it down.

    Sounds like you're off to a good start with this guy. Already planning a larger enclosure. Good stuff. 5' cage will hold him. For a little while. Muahahaha! :(
     
  12. dekor

    dekor New Member

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    Yep, me and my girlfriend decided to go for another leopard gecko but we fell in love with Loki so sat down. Thought about it rationally and agreed if we were going to get him we would have to commit to it! So thats what we're shooting for! We saving for a house at present and aiming for a 2 bedroom house so he can have his own room (unless a more human form of pet comes along!).

    What sort of Lizards do you have then? Think we got our own two man post going here, go us! Will be popping down the garden centre for soil this weekend as chatham is a scummy town and dont imagine the soil being that much better! Plus to find the soil in my garden means getting through a jungle of grass!

    Had a peak at the Retes stack, looks like a good idea, definately a consideration. Might wait for the next viv as planning on it being taller as this one is only 15 inches tall.

    Looking forward to years down the line when he is mahoosive!
     
  13. Varanus99

    Varanus99 New Member

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    Just remember bringing a monitor into your home is never a rational decision, LOL! Rational people have goldfish. We are kooky. Just accept it.

    Sure can wait on the Retes stack. Just wanted to make you aware of it since it is an excellent tool for maintaining temperature ranges.

    I have mainly dwarf species of monitors and a few big guys. I have quite a few and when you have as many as I do keeping the true monsters becomes all but impossible unless you have enormous facilities which I do not. My largest monitors are adult argus. I also have some flavis and roughnecks which I would consider medium size. And a bunch of dwarves (Hi-ho, hi-ho) including yellow ackies, red ackies, kimberly rocks and tristis. Over the years I have kept other species but have settled on these guys as my favorites. The Kimberly rocks are the stars, they are really cool. And the argus tripod, meaning stand up on their hind legs, which I never get tired of seeing. Oh and you wanna talk feeding response? Yeah, the argus have a pretty good one.

    I also have some blue tongue skinks and a pair of mutant leopard geckos. Which is a law now I believe. If you keep herps you have to have at least one leopard gecko. The girlfriend wanted the geckos because they are "pretty". Feh. Monitors rule :)

    Nah, thats not fair the leos are ok. I think one of them actually moved last week. It was very exciting.
     
  14. mkbailey755

    mkbailey755 New Member

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    You do Know your stuff and bring alot of light for beginners like my self thank you :)
     
  15. Varanus99

    Varanus99 New Member

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    Thanks. Thats really what Im trying to do.

    Ive been at this for a very long time. Over the years Ive tried and failed at many different aspects of monitor husbandry. But through trial and error, a lot of reading and the work of Frank Retes I feel Ive developed a pretty solid understanding of this whole monitor thing.

    So I truly enjoy sharing that information with people who are new to the hobby. A monitor is a lot different than a ball python. A monitor can not live and reproduce in a drawer. They need a little more than that. There's also a LOT of bad information floating around that I like to squash if I can.

    There's a difference between keeping a monitor alive and truly having a monitor BE a monitor. A monitor kept properly is just about the coolest thing going and I really want people to be able to experience that with their own lizards.
     
  16. dekor

    dekor New Member

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    Yeah Leos are pretty nice but they can be such buggers, had one for three years which got an eye infection and refused to eat. Last one only lasted a month but believe it was ill when my girlfriend got it for me as he was so damn tiny. Hence I don't go to that pet shop now!

    My girlfriend is now convinced Loki doesn't like her as he hisses at her all the time but not at me! Oh that and her mum came round today and Loki had no problems coming out to say hello and following her finger around the glass!

    Christ, got your own army of lizards by the sounds of it! When do you launch the attack? Got any photos posted up, would be cool to see some photos of your scaly family!
     
  17. Varanus99

    Varanus99 New Member

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    The tentative starting date is July 2010. I should have a suitable army by that time. My only hope is that my troops dont encounter any glass doors or windows as we all know they will just try to walk through it for an hour.
     
  18. dekor

    dekor New Member

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    Ha ha or attack there own reflection as Loki often does!
     
  19. Razaiel

    Razaiel New Member

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    Hi Dekor

    You are getting some excellent advice here from Varanus99. Nice to have someone really knowledgeable on this forum I haven't been around for a while but notice crocdoc doesn't seem to be around any more :D I'm still a relative newbie to monitor keeping myself as my sav is just 2 years old. If what FR says is true - I need to wait at least another 8 until I can count myself even moderately successful with keeping a varanid.

    Dekor, I know you're in the UK like I am, I'm currently using the Homebase topsoil with argos playsand mix. It seems to be working OK but my sav doesn't seem to make actual burrows out of just the soil but digs himself under the flat bark stuff. If you find anything that's really good perhaps you can let me know :eek:

    I think I'll be more regular on this forum now 8)
     
  20. dekor

    dekor New Member

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    Yeah, his advice does seem to be top knotch, Homebase eh, might have to pop down there then. Yeah Loki usually digs under his cave so he has his head sticking out the other side. Popping down pet shop to get some pinkies today, although need to make sure they aren't too big for him! Gonna give him two pinkies a week and crickets for rest of diet. Will keep an eye on him to make sure he's not getting too chubby! You going to the Basildon reptile show this Sunday?
     
  21. Varanus99

    Varanus99 New Member

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    Thanks Razaiel

    I know who crocdoc is and I've read many of his posts on various forums. He is an extremely knowledgeable and experienced individual. He's also very generous with sharing the information he has gathered from his work at the zoo and his own animals. And he has videos of perenties hatching. Ooooh baby.

    I thought I noticed some UK slang in there :D

    Yeah, it can be a little tricky to find a soil they will dig actual burrows in. Finicky little buggers. I had to try a few different things before I found one they like. But hes digging under the bark and making his own shelter which is a good thing.

    FR is big on allowing the monitors to engage in normal life functions. Digging, hunting, breeding, basking, hiding, destruction, whatever. And it sounds like you're doing that. Bravo.

    Dekor I still say you can feed more rodents than that. Not trying to give you a hard time just making an observation. The final decision is of course yours.

    One of the keys to monitors is allowing them to make the majority of the decisions. They know better than we do. As humans we feel compelled to control every aspect of their lives. Or to assign numbers to everything. Now, how many pinkies to feed to a juvie monitor? My answer would be as many he wants. On some days, that might be two. On others five. On others zero. Let him make the choice. You dont have to worry about him becoming obese until he's much, much older. More people underfeed their monitors than overfeed especially hatchlings and juvies.

    On a side note sometimes at shows newbies will ask "What temperatures should I keep my savannah at? 130? 100? 90? 80?". My answer is "YES!". All of the above. Provide a wide range of temperatures and let them pick.

    Often Ill read a post by someone who says they have a water monitor, its 18 months old and its 2' long. Wow. Then they go on to say they feed X number of rodents per week. And those numbers havent changed. That lizard should easily be 5-6' by that point in its life. But its not getting enough food.

    As an example I have some hatchling ackies that were born in late july. They have easily tripled in size by now and are eating large pinkies as well as adult roaches. At 2 months of age and bear in mind ackies are a very small species. And Im not "powerfeeding" them or doing anything crazy. I just give them the food and they eat it, lol.

    The only caution would be the size of the prey. An adult monitor, if given something too big, has the power and life experience to take it apart before eating if he cant wolf it down. Babies tend to just gulp. So just make sure the prey is the appropriate size. But as far as the number of prey? Have at it.
     
  22. dekor

    dekor New Member

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    Have at it. Like that one. Ok well just picked up 15 pinkies so will give him a go tomorrow.

    Damn you noticed my UK slang, having problems hiding it!
     
  23. Varanus99

    Varanus99 New Member

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    I like the UK slang.

    "Have at it" was a lame attempt to copy the John Cleese black knight routine. Have at you! Monty Python very popular across the pond but Ill bet you folks are pretty tired of hearing that :)

    But Im feelin' a bit knackered. Been too long since Ive been on holiday. Cheers, mate.

    :) :) ;)
     
  24. dekor

    dekor New Member

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    Ah Monty Ptyhon, don't think can get tired of it! We are the Knights that say Nee!
     
  25. Razaiel

    Razaiel New Member

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    Sad to say I'm lagging a bit in the Monty Python stuff so can't join in on this one!

    I think I need more substrate in my viv - he doesn't really seem to burrow that deep - I've just measured it and it's decreased to just 15 inches!! I guess it's when he splashed about in his water bowl he gets loads of it in there and it just gets chucked out :)

    Just re-read your post, Dekor - yours is a CB? I know they do exist in the UK but I've often wondered how much different they are temperament wise from the normal WC/CF savs. Mine's a WC/CF/whichever one.

    Varanus99 - what are your ideas on handling? I've tended to go with the hands-off approach as I started with the "hold for 15 mins twice a day" recipe and basically it wasn't really working. I had a stressed out sav and a stressed out me. So I then followed crocdocs (and a few others) advice and left him be. I have a sav now that isn't a lap-monitor (but I have dragons and snakes that fill that role). Since he went into his big viv with better temps etc he doesn't often want anything to do with me (unless I bear food) but he doesn't seem to hate me either. He doesn't mind me messing about in his viv, and he'll tolerate me scratching his ear area side of his head (when it suits him). And I've never been bitten so hopefully that means he doesn't see me as a threat.

    I have been on other forums where every mand and his dog advocates handling regularly to "tame" them, but it can't be so wrong to have a monitor that's a monitor can it? I seem to be in the minority (often only of one) on some forums :)

    Sorry if I'm hijacking your thead, Dekor - but it's so nice to be able to talk monitor and get good advice and more insight into them. I'm not going to Basildon - tbh I rarely go outside of Oxfordshire / Northamptonshire area I'd probably get lost - if it was a more central thing I'd probably go though. Also I daren't as I'd probably end up wanting some more reptiles! LOL
     

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