Maybe this will help. Don's answers are bolded. In a message dated 6/9/2006 2:50:52 P.M. Central Standard Time, Joejr14 writes: Don- Just got two quick questions for you. Aside from posting on CS.com I've started to post on Reptilerooms.com and have shared my feeding schedule with them. Needless to say, it's been met with understandable criticism. I have had people tell me that Kathy's book says once a week, their vet says once a week, etc. Basically, who am I to tell them something else is okay? Basically, I'm stuffing these snakes as hatchlings and I'm not at all afraid to admit it. I HATE dealing with hatchlings and want them out of that stage as soon as possible. The other issue is that pinkies have squat for nutrition. Anyway, what I've started doing is feeding pinkies every 3 days, double pinkies 3-5, and fuzzies 4-5. Once they get past fuzzies and onto hoppers it returns to the normal once a week (5-7 day) routine that everyone knows. Do you personally see a problem with this? At proper digesting temps, I have NO problem with this at all. As long as you slam on the brakes at 30-33 inches in length. If you don't, you'll regret it. Also, what is your opinion about the 1.5 x rule? It's a "safe" rule and prudent to advocate. Most of the people out there are not maintaining proper temps and therefore, if they fed something larger than 1.5, puking could result. I posted this picture of a bloodred just eaten a fuzzy and was flat out told 'that meal is too big for a cornsnake!'. Someone should have told the blood that because she kept it down without a problem. Well, the geometry of the stomach of a snake dictates that the meal you fed that snake was pushing it. I tell people, it's better to feed a hotdog to an adult corn than a tennis ball. Maybe the same volume, but stretched out for maximum digestion. Since these snakes are not venomous, they didn't have venom (digestive enzymes) digesting the core of the prey while their stomach acids works on the outside. I'm not shocked by what you fed that snake, but if John or Jane Doe saw that, they may think they can do it. Hence, I don't want to see anyone advocating the regimen and size of the prey you fed that snake. It would be reckless advertising. I'm sure you understand what I'm saying. Even when you post a disclaimer about optimal cage temperatures, they only remember the shocking part of the picture. When you then advertise how fast their snakes will grow, people get on board and overfeed their snakes. Some of those snakes die from the complications of chronic regurgitation syndrome. Anyway, if you'd be so kind as to give your opinion about my feeding schedule as well as the 1.5 x rule I'd appreciate it. What I'd like to do, if you're okay with it, would be to copy your response and make a post over there. I'm not trying to convert these people to my feeding schedule, I'm just trying to get them to understand that just because something is different doesn't make it wrong, and we're all going to learn a lot more about feedings, breeding, different incubation strategies and such through trying different things. No problem. Everything I've typed up to this paragraph was without the knowledge you wanted to post this and I stick to every word of it. As long as people are sternly cautioned about the potential negative side affects of power feeding, I feel that they have a right to know what their feeding options are. In my books, I go into great detail about the negative impact of power feeding. I don't tell them not to do it, but tell them it's safer not to. I feed my "special" future breeders one appropriately sized prey item (usually 1.5 x diameter) every five days. Sometimes, I give them two items that are 1.0 x diameter so they'll be digested faster. Regardless of which I do, I ALWAYS reduce the feeding when they reach 30-33" long. I feed my adult male corns one medium adult mouse every 10-14 days. Females are fed one every seven days unless they're producing eggs. Then, they get one every four to five days. Just like obesity in mammals (especially humans), over feeding kills. Not only are obese snakes unsightly, but they have shorter lives and probably suffer physical pain. Most are rendered incapable of breeding. My second book has photographs of a surgery to remove fatty deposits on the hips of one of my bloodreds. She was incapable of breeding for three years straight, but after the surgery, she successfully bred. Don www.cornsnake.NET ~~~~>830-964-3200 [/b]
Hmmm... this is from your friend Don's site... I believe I am doing this with my snake's diet. I feed him two pinkies every six days, there's a visible lump a day or so after feeding him, so according to the care sheet on www.cornsnake.net I'm going the correct route. Which is what I've been told all along.
Oh yes, and my temperatures are optimal for digestion for corn snakes. I own and house 10 reptiles, and controlling heat (and/or lighting) is one of the first things you learn about keeping certain species. And even though I know for a fact that I'm keeping my snake in the right temperature (I have my UTH hooked up to a thermostat, measured accurately with a digital thermometer with a probe), I feel following your feeding schedule could have disasterous effects on my snake's health. Sounds to me like your friend seems to think you overfeed too.
You were not told 'flat out' that it was too big, I merely said it appeared that way to me, that was a serious misrepresentation of the discussion taking place here. Anyway, Don actually seems to back up the 'prudent' way in which the people here feed their corns, and clearly indicates that 'the meal you fed that snake was pushing it'. What everyone needs to keep in mind here is that the majority of people who use these boards are new keepers, and as such should be advised to keep their pets in prudent, tried and tested ways. For someone with a lot of experience it may be OK to try new things, but it should not be recommended for any new keeper to try anything as controversial as this....and again, Don seems to not agree entirely with you.
Well first off, Don said he had "no probolem" with the frequency of my feedings---it seems you both conveniently missed that. Don also said that he feeds his special holdbacks every 5 days, which isn't that different than what I'm doing. Regardless, I didn't start this topic to convert people to my feeding schedule, rather I started it to discuss it on a discussion board so that if people were interested they could try it out. I don't care one way or another if people use the schedule, but there's no harm in discussing it. Eire- I never told you that what you were feeding was incorrect, I simply said that in my opinion you could feed fuzzies. Perhaps I'm reading your post wrong, but it seems like you don't know who Don is. I wouldn't consider him a 'friend' in the sense of the word, rather he's one of the top 3 corn snake breeders in the world. I value his opinion very much and am not afraid to ask questions when I'm not sure about something. I agreed before he said anything that the meal I fed that bloodred was pushing it, and I'm not denying that. However, I do not feel that I am jeopardizing her by feeding that large of a meal, and I don't believe Don thinks so either. You might consider the schedule powerfeeding, but in his answer Don said he has no problem with the frequency of the meals. You have to remember that this isn't a science. It's about trial and error. When I push certain snakes too far, they puke. When that happens, they get babied for a while and then the feedings increase again. You have to learn the feeding habits and capabilities of each individual snake. I know some of my snakes can handle larger meals and some will puke them right up. It's all about babying them until they are out of that hatchling stage.
Here's my email back from Kathy: As far as feeding, my gut feeling is that growing them more quickly than "usual" or than in the wild "could" lead to a shorter lifespan than when feeding at a rate that makes them grow more slowly. I base that on studies that have been done (admittedly with mammals) on calorie deprivation and longevity, and just my educated guess from lots of years working with them. But as far as I know, nobody has done any kind of scientific study, and my educated guess could be completely wrong! I am certainly open to new information as it develops. There is no way I could manage to feed more than once per week even if I wanted to - just too many babies! It would be great if you could randomly divide some litters in half and feed half the "normal" way and half on the accelerated regimen. In order to be really worthwhile, you would need to randomly keep some from each group for quite a while, preferably years. But any info for any amount of time would be better than no info. The reason that we suggested (in our book) meals of no more than 1.5 x the diameter of the snake is because corns tend to regurge if overfed. I like to offer conservative advice to hopefully ensure success to beginners. But the advanced hobbyist who knows his or her individual snakes is in a much better position than I am to decide what a particular animal can handle. If your snake regurges, then you were wrong! I have read that in human studies, it was proven that eating a few large meals will result in more weight gain than eating many small meals with the same number of calories. I don't know of any similar reptile studies though, so take it for what it is worth. In short, I feel that controlled studies by EXPERIENCED keepers, especially those who are willing to keep careful records and share the results with the rest of us, can only help the hobby. There are so many questions that NOBODY really knows the answers to, that a lot more research needs to be done in all areas. But I still caution the novice keeper to try to stay within the commonly accepted parameters for the best chance of success. Once successful for a "while" (time will vary with individuals), don't hesitate to try new ideas as long as they seem logical to you and you are willing and able to monitor the success of your program and to change it if needed. You may share this email with others if you like. Please send me a link if you decide to post it anywhere. Kathy Love www.Cornutopia.com
As I said before, and Kathy clearly agrees, this is something that should be done only by experienced keepers....not folks who are new to corns or snakes. There are no long term studies, nothing concrete to prove or disprove the effects of such a schedule and you are right in one regard, we will never know unless it's tried and tracked over years and years and multitudes of snakes and meticulous record keeping. This all came about because of a post from someone who had 6 month old corn (their first I believe) and it was housed on what is a questionable substrate and had a prolapse. It was being fed two pinkies. We will never really know if that snake was being overfed or not, and what caused the prolapse for sure but that is exactly my point....new keepers need to stick to the tried and true and it should not even be suggested that they try something like this. Don and Kathy clearly would agree with that, as would anyone. I currently keep Leo's, we have a corn snake here and I am getting an IJCP next week so do not consider myself inexperienced yet would not be willing to try this, I (nor the majority of posters here) just don't have what would be necessary to properly monitor and feel comfy with such a schedule. I know people here who I consider friends that have been keeping snakes and reptiles for 25+ years, I have learned almost all I know from them, yet would still not feed a corn in this manner if they told me too. They may have the experience to do it and monitor it, but I do not. I know my limitations as a keeper, I do what I consider to be best for my pets and follow the advice I find from reputable sources and by using common sense. Sadly, that is not how a lot of people care for their pets when they first acquire them and they run into all sorts of problems due to lack of research or lack of good information. I'm not saying this is not good information, I'm saying it should not be passed off as an acceptable method of feeding for those who have no basic understanding of basic care. It is a good discussion, and new things do have to be tried and proven or not, it's just not for me. I would hope anyone who decides to try this really understands that it may or may not be harmful and there is a fine line between this method and power feeding, and a fine line between an OK meal and a meal that is far too big and 'pushing it'.
Actually, Jeff Ronne did a study on Boas (Not a Corn but same concept). Every single Boa he powerfed died before the age of 5. Power feeding drastically decreases snakes' lifespan. For the well being of the snakes, I would not even risk it by feeding too much.
From the breeder you're acquainted with... Now, after reading what you posted from Kathy Love and Don from www.cornsnake.net, I was right to stand my ground and stay on the route I am going. At which point you decided to lecture me on "not trying anything new". I am a novice snake keeper, this juvie is my first snake and I've only had him since the end of January. So, according to the advice of my trusted sources as well as your trusted sources, I shouldn't be feeding fuzzies at this point in time to my corn snake. You seemed to "conveniently miss that".
I'm not sure where Kathy or Don said a 31 gram snake couldn't handle fuzzies? The bloodred in the picture is 22 grams, and is eating fuzzies without a problem. Don said he had no problem with the feeding frequency as long as temps were high and the amount of food decreased after the snake hit 30-33 inches. This is exactly what the feeding schedule does....
Boas are totally different creatures. They do not need to eat once a week once they get out of the hatchling stage and into sub-adult to adult stage. Corns are different. Most corns need to be fed every 7-14 days when they are adults, and if you looked, I do not recommend feeding that schedule past fuzzies. I find it very hard to believe that providing a snake with extra food while they are on pinkies and fuzzies would be drastically harmful in the later stages of life.
But he did seem to have a bit of a problem with the size of prey, he clearly indicated that you were "pushing" it and although he was not "shocked" by it went on to say "I don't want to see anyone advocating the regimen and size of the prey you fed that snake. It would be reckless advertising." There is a huge difference between frequency and size, and the two terms cannot be used interchangeably. Neither Kathy or Don seems overly worried about the frequency, but the concern is around the size, and fuzzies for a 22 gram gram corn have Don worried. The recommendations you are making to novice keepers is to increase both frequency and size, "pushing" it beyond common practice. Again, the frequency may not be the issue here, but cleary the size is. Somewhere along the way I think you came up with your size guide based on a frequency guide and I do not see where anyone is backing you up on prey that is too big. Fuzzies for a small corn are too big.
I have nothing more to add here other than you would be well advised to not "advertise" so to speak your feeding regimen here to the novice keepers on this site. I know you don't see a regurgitation or two as that big a deal, but I do. I don't like puking up my meals, do you? The tried and trusted methods are best for the beginners here...
Sigh. I'm confident in my abilities as a keeper to know my snakes and judge what they can and cannot handle. Sometimes I guess wrong and the snake pukes. I can handle that. They don't eat for 10 days and then they get offered a much smaller meal. After a few small meals spaced out the frequency speeds back up. If you've noticed, the feeding schedule is mainly about frequency. I'm careful about bumping snakes up to the next sized mouse. I much prefer to avoid regurges when possible, but sometimes things happen. How can you say fuzzies for a small corn are too big? What do you mean by 'small corn'? I have 50 gram snakes eating hoppers, is that too big? Do you expect a corn snake to eat pinkies until it is 100 grams because a fuzzy 'might' make it regurge? I mean where do you draw the line?
Again, sigh. I have no problem advertising the feeding schedule to people. Some people like to try new things, and there's no problem with that if you're comfortable with your skills are a herper. If you're not, that's fine. My suggestion was to feed your 30gram snake a fuzzy and for some reason you've taken it as some personal feeding attack. That's not it at all, it's just my opinion that if your snake is eating 2 large pinkies every 6-7 days it can eat a fuzzy. You don't have to agree with me, and you can continue feeding it pinkies for however long you want. However, at some point in time you will have to feed it fuzzies. When that time comes, are you going to ask your vet first? I hate to sound like an ass, but you've gotta make decisions about your snake(s) on your own---you can't always be consultiung with a vet before jumping up in prey size. Raising corns is not an exact science, and one forumla doesn't work for all snakes. You can raise your snakes on a very conservative diet and feeding schedule if you'd like. I did that for 2 years and thought the growth I was seeing sucked, so I'm trying something new. To this date, I'm very happy with the growth that I'm seeing and won't change the schedule unless something drastic happens. I have 3 clutches on the ground and will be using this same schedule with my hatchlings when they hatch. In any event, I highly doubt that ALL posters on this website are 'noobs' or 'novices' and some might be intrigued by this and willing to try it. Just because you are not doesn't make my information null and void or worthless. And for the record, I was not pushing my feeding schedule on you. I'm not sure where you got that impression. I suggested that your snake could handle fuzzies, period. I didn't tell you to speed up your feedings. You've made it clear that you're not willing to do that, so that's fine. Again, I never said that the tried and trusted methods are wrong, bad, or that they shouldn't be followed. This is an alternative feeding schedule that people are welcome to try if they so see fit, that's it.
I never once questioned your ability as a keeper. I pointed out that I, as a novice keeper, would not feel comfortable feeding in such a fashion and was worried that this was being offered as an alternative method on a forum that consists mainly of new and novice keepers. I truly believe that it should not be tried by anyone new to snakes, more can go wrong than right and there is no solid evidence one way or the other to back it up. I agreed that new things have to be tried, but again said that should only be done by those who truly understand corns and keep detailed records and can determine, before it is too late, that something has gone wrong. I also based my 'fuzzies are too big' statement on the picture you posted, it appears too big and I believe Don agrees. Certainly they are not going to be eating pinks at 100 grams and they do need to be moved up as they grow. Again, I only said I thought the snake in the picture was fed a prey item that was too large for it. I draw the line, for me and new inexperienced keepers, at the tried and true recommended frequency and size guides. Anything that is experimental or contraversial should not be attempted by anyone who does not have a solid base of successful keeping under their belt. That leaves me (and most others here) out of this feeding schedule. That has been my point and concern from the begining, and if you believe I was questioning your ability I apologize, I was not. I was questioning the prudency of recommending this method on this site to novice keepers.
Take a close, hard look through the snake forums here, and all of the forums. There are a few people who are experienced, most are new and have no clue as to what they are doing. That is my concern, bottom line, that those folks will over feed their snakes and kill them. There are too many people here who went out and got a snake, beardie, gecko or other reptile and did zero research. They are not set up properly and have no idea what or how to feed any of them.....they are the ones that should not be trying this, under any circumstances, yet will because they read about it so it must be OK. That is the scary part to all of this. Do take a moment and go through the snake forums at least, and tell me how many people are really able to understand what you are saying and should have a go at it.
And that's all I was saying as well. In that previous post I linked, I showed where you told me to feed my snake fuzzies instead of pinkies. And all you knew about me at that point was that I had a 31 gram corn snake, you had no idea how long he was, how long I had had him, how experienced I was in keeping snakes (particularly corns) or how responsible I was before I purchased him (did I do research, have the tank set-up properly before hand, etc...). That's a problem. Where do I draw the line? I believe I made that point clear in this thread many times, but I'll reiterate it again for you: Nothing larger than 1.5X the widest girth of the snake. Anything larger than that, I wouldn't try feeding. As far as feeding a 50 gram corn hoppers, I really wouldn't know. This is why when I think I'm ready to move up to the next feeder size I let my breeder know my corn's weight, length and circumfrence of his widest girth. I can't base whether something is too large for a snake or not with just one variable defined. Neither can anyone else that keeps snakes, experienced or not. So yes, I think you jumped to conclusions in that post about the prolapse. No need to be sighing! By posting on these forums, you are asking for our opinion. You may not necessarily like it, but you're going to get it nonetheless. I, of course, am open to new ideas on herp care for all my reptiles. And Clementine_3 does the same thing. You have to expect to be open to criticism when you suggest a feeding method that most people are not familiar with. You can't tell me you didn't think people were going to respond with skepticism on that, did you? Nobody's saying you're wrong, people are just going to be critical of something new. And a responsible keeper isn't going to do whatever some Joe Blow (no pun intended!) tells them to do. If you took it the wrong way, I apologize. I'm only presenting my side of the case and stating my opinion.
I expected skepticism, and even criticism. That wasn't doubted and I knew it was coming---that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when someone is unwilling to believe that it's possible that there are other acceptable alternatives to the tried and true methods. I'm not saying either of you are in that category, I'm simply saying that is what bugs me. As far as people being experience, you have to remember that I post a lot on cornsnakes.com. Over there, the majority of regular posters are not news---but rather very experienced keepers. There are plenty of newbs, but Don Soderberg, Rich Zuchowski, and Kathy Love all post over there---along with a ton of pretty up and coming corn breeders. I saw that this forum wasn't exactly hopping and was what appeared to be a lot of newbs so I decided to come post. I'm by no means an expert but with 30 corns I've had my fair share of experiences and figured I'd be able to help with some problems/advice. I don't expect people to just run out and try something that is new---that's reckless. And yes, the demands of the schedule are hard---the temps have to be high and you have to know what you're doing. It's not meant for everyone and I wouldn't tell someone who has a single snake to try it. That being said, I still want you to monitor your snake next time you feed it. I'm very curious to know when that snake first craps after feeding. My guess is between 48-72 hours. Lemme know.
He was fed Friday evening (late, around 10pm) and he had a movement (in his water dish :roll: ) last night... so about 48 hours. He was weighed Saturday, and he's 25 inches at the moment and 37 grams now. So he's growing just fine on my vet's suggestion, which is what I figured. I'd think in a little bit he'll be able to take those 5g fuzzies I was talking about quite safely.
