help! My bearded isn't opening his eyes this morning

Discussion in 'Bearded Dragons' started by mklein, Aug 29, 2005.

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  1. kephy

    kephy Moderator

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    It's true. And it is too bad because we can all learn so much from each other. You just can't get accross mood and tone like you could with someone face to face, and being behind a computer screen tends to remove inhibitions.

    Thank you. I hope this experience doesn't cause you to leave the forums and stop learning or sharing your experiences. Whether we agree or disagree, we can always stand to learn a thing or two.
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. clarinet45

    clarinet45 Well-Known Member

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    One, silica is glass, that's why playsand is the only safe sand to use. It doesnt contain any silcia.

    i'm glad you took him to a vet. I hope you give him up to a rescue, rather than put him down.

    the level of care that was provided, i assumed it was petstore beardie. My mistake, but what did the breeder say about vita-sand?

    Yes, 8 years is a long time in a hobby that is growing constantly. I am 19 thanks, why?

    i see where this is going, but i don't care anymore. Don't get me started on PETA, they won't get involved unless it's something 'cute', reptiles to them are the same to you, not even worthy of proper care or protection. they are a bunch of vegen, tree-hugging hypocrites.
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. mklein

    mklein New Member

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    My BD was purchased from pet store which buys from same breeder as Berkeley Vivarium...both recommended Vita-Sand. This store, although small, does provide good care for herps...all had appropriately sized aquariums for size of herp and lighting/heat/etc. They sold high-end wood cages and seemed reputable enough.

    Your advice contradicts Vosjoli/Mailloux...but from amount of responses I've gotten on forums I do have to believe that sand is bad...at least edible sand.

    This is a desert lizard though folks...you gotta think sand is ok...this is pretty straightforward..it's what they live/root around in. Sure sounded like an easier hygiene/maintenance issue for cage too. Carpets seem less sanitary...given that BD poops once/day. Tile/smooth surface sounds better from hygiene standpoint...but then lizard doesn't have anything to root around in...I want a semi-natural environment.
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. mklein

    mklein New Member

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    if he has eaten sand...

    Given that I mentioned he was rooting around furiously in Vita-Sand night before going "limp"...and assuming he did ingest some and is impacted/etc...

    What is cost for removing impaction? Sounds like surgery...does anybody have experience with cost for this procedure? I can guess though...
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. kephy

    kephy Moderator

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    Desert, yes, but much of the area this species habitates is hard, packed dirt or grassy/rocky areas. Not really loose sand like the sahara. Even if they do encounter loose sand occasionally, it's not all day every day as it would be in a cage. Also, one has to look at their survival rate in the wild. I'm sure young dragons do swallow particles in the wild that they can't digest, and it may cause a lot of death in the wild that we don't know about. We do know it can happen in captivity, so we try to protect them from that. Paper towels may not be terribly close to what they are used to in the wild, but most of these animals haven't been in the wild for many generations so it isn't really depriving them of what they are used to, either. We have learned from mistakes made in keeping these dragons in captivity, and we know now that loose sand (among other loose substrates) can and does cause problems for them.
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. kephy

    kephy Moderator

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    Re: if he has eaten sand...

    It depends on the severity of the impaction I suppose. I don't really have any numbers for you. If it's really bad I have heard of removing it by surgery on a rare occasion and I'm sure that would be quite high, but I don't even know if they would try that on a small baby. Sometimes it can be passed through enemas which would not be too expensive I don't think. There is also the chance of passing it through home care, if it's not too severe. Here is a link on that:
    http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections+index...-87-page-1.html

    Out of curiousity, do you know when was the last time you saw him poop?
     
  12. mklein

    mklein New Member

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    My thinking now is that I should cut-to-fit a section of "plastic/linoleum/etc" and put in cage. I can possibly get something with "earth" pattern that would look better than paper towels/newspaper.

    This would wipe/spray "clean"...unlike carpeting/etc.

    Any ideas on dealing with impaction problems? I'll search forums and see what's been mentioned to date...
     
  13. kephy

    kephy Moderator

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    The best ideas I can give you are in that article. Cheri has personally dealt with the problem a lot more than I have, and she has written it much better than I could.

    The linoleum is a good idea. I know a few people who use that. You could also get non-adhesive shelf liner. Duck brand makes one that is a tan color, from a few feet away it actually kind of looks like sand.
     
  14. Daggerlover

    Daggerlover Well-Known Member

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    to mklein's support here - when I first started researching beardies, sand was recommended all around. I had even envisioned building a terrarium filled with sand and desert type apparel. However, I found these forums before I purchased my beardie, and swiftly found out sand was bad - and totally changed my mind.
    Some people still recommend using washed playsand (from what I've read in my research, which is also fairly recent). I personally do not as all I've read here are horror stories, but yes, there are some people out there who prefer using sand and will swear by it because they never have had problems. In short, he was just doing what he had researched, what was thought to be correct, and hopefully we have helped him and his beardie by stating why sand is so bad.

    If your beardie is older/adultish, sometimes you can pass minor impaction with liquified food (baby food), diluted juice (good laxative) a lot (up to a couple times per day or more) of warm baths (enters the vent and 'gets things moving') and the like. There are some people on here who have had a lot of experience with clearing impaction - they can probably comment more on this for you.
    In very young dragons impaction is more risky and more severe. If, in your vets' care, the vet may be able to remove it but I really cannot estimate a cost for this.

    I'm not sure if anyone asked this before but how old is your dragon? How big is he?
     
  15. Daggerlover

    Daggerlover Well-Known Member

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    (btw, you guys type too quick, half of that was typed as I was typing...hahah)

    Good idea on the lenolium. Something with a coarser pattern would be good so he can catch his grip on it:D
     
  16. mklein

    mklein New Member

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    Re: if he has eaten sand...

    Thanks for impaction link...I found it via searching and it has things I'll try after getting him from vet tomorrow. Baths/hydration, extra heat, squirting small amounts of fluid/oils down throat/etc.

    Why his eyes are closed and ALL 4 legs are immobile is strange...rear leg problems I would expect. Noticed no bumps on him.

    He poops every day. So impaction has only been for 2 days now. He went "limp" day after pooping.
     
  17. mklein

    mklein New Member

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    Given amount of posts...maybe we should move it to IM? Just kidding...

    I hadn't thought of slickness of surface...good point. When he jumped off my sofa to carpet and then onto hardwood...it was hysterical. He couldn't grip hardwood and was basically paddling in place....going nowhere extremely quickly.

    So now I'm <not> hot on linoleum...I really would prefer semi-natural surface that lizard can grip. Cleaning carpet daily sounds unhealthy...unless you yank carpet EACH day and substitute with replacement...maybe this is way to go though...
     
  18. bruin77

    bruin77 New Member

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    I use slate floor tiles and they work great they can grip them pretty good and easy to clean, also kind of a natural look.
     
  19. mklein

    mklein New Member

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    I'm thinking now that perhaps his cage wasn't hot enough for proper digestion...I have a crappy thermometer that registers just over 100F...but who knows. I will have to pick up a proper thermometer...I am thinking of PE-3 Temp Gun from tempgun.com.

    My wooden cage is 48"x24"x19"...equals 21888 cubic inches. This I believe converts to 94gallon. Pet store sold me heat lamp of 100W yet manufacturers guidelines state I s/be using 150W bulb. Feeling sand w/my hand and top of his bridge (extra hot here)...seemed to indicate heat was ok...but w/o proper temp gauge it's hard to tell.

    Also...I believe UV bulb is too far away from basking area. I have ESU Reptile 7%UVB lamp. It's mounted to inside/top of cage...height of cage is 19"...should I be lowering light a few inches on a chain or something? In my largest wooden cage I do have 2 of these...in slightly smaller (3' long) wooden cage there's a single one.

    Kephy...I searched on UVB in forums and not finding appropriate answer....I know you don't like these bulbs either. What distance should 7%uvb be placed from BD in cage? Can you recommend a different/higherQuality UVB fluorescent-type bulb for my housing?
     
  20. kephy

    kephy Moderator

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    A fluorescent UVB bulb should be about 6 inches away from the basking spot. The dragon needs to be able to get that close. With the ESU 7% even that isn't good enough, it will never put out enough UVB for him even when it's brand new, even if he can get inches away from it he won't get a fraction of what other bulbs could give him. They just aren't adequate bulbs. I recommend either an Exo-Terra ReptiGlo 8.0, or a ZooMed ReptiSun 10.0. If you can't find those a ZooMed ReptiSun 5.0 would do. Anything else, unless it's a mercury vapor bulb, I wouldn't waste my money on.
     
  21. Itsdan2345

    Itsdan2345 Member

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  22. mthorpe

    mthorpe Well-Known Member

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    You need to read decent information... that one is, well, crap... read through DECENT things, like www.kakadudragons.com/caresheet/ or the articles on here. 99.9% of the books avaliable are out of date, and contain VERY bad information. the ONLY semi safe particulate substrate, which still poses a risk of eye infections and impactions is washed and sifted playsand.


    you need to remove that silica sand immediatley, its one of the worst substrates availaible, and im almost certain now that is your problem. you say your beardie isnt opening his eyes? well, from that i would have to say that your dragon has got particles of silica in its eyes, silica (SiO2) is one of the raw materials in silicate glasses, and is commonly found in sandstone or quartq, so your basiclly paying out for ground down sandstone, not good.... how would you like a load of sandstone in your eyes?? you need to remove it asap. and keep up with the baths and soaks to try to wash out the sand from his eyes.


    About the not being very active, it could be from the pain of the eyes, but it could also be an impaction. they smell by licking their surroundings, and when they lick the sand they will injest particles. this builds up over time, and can cause a blockage in their digestive tract. this is another reason for avoiding particulate substrates. Another is that if the sand is not cleaned throughly and changed every month or so it can harbour paricites, and give yoru dragon a paricitic infection.


    As you are not willing to spend enough money on the animal, id say it would be best to take it back to where you bought it from. they are expensive to keep, and vets bills are a certainty with almost any animal that you want to keep. and yes, if i had a tarantula, and it needed to see the vets, then i would pay for it. but i would make sure ive got enough money saved up to firstly buy it, and also to get it setup properley.



    i agree with you that the problems that you are seeing are caused by the vita sand. its a VERY bad substrate. and the fact that its reccomended in that book prooves that its a bad book...


    higher/lower life form? what makes a bearded dragon a lower life form? i love my beardie just as much as i love my dog. i do not see how they can be considered a lower life form.
     
  23. mthorpe

    mthorpe Well-Known Member

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    Okay, i started typing that out yesterday and fell asleep half way through... lol theres another 2 pages of posts from when i started typing.


    You need to change the UVB bulb asap. the ESU brand bulbs are rubbish, they dont output nearly enough UVB for a beardie to properley synthesise vitamin D3.

    About the desert thing, go to the bearded dragon articles pages on here, and look at 'Humidity - Setting the myths aside' that states where beardies actually live, hard packed clay areas running alongside grasslands and lakes.
     
  24. tazshedevil

    tazshedevil New Member

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    MKlein, last October I had to bring Beast to the vet, she was impacted, not pooped for 7 days. It cost me 40$ canadian for enema. She gave me the option to wait another few days but I figured that since Beast was already in her care, better do it now than coming back in a few days.

    Poop samples are 35$ can, blood test 65$can and general herp check up are 45$can. My vet is the best in my region for reptiles and his price is pretty reasonable.

    I found that my vet does not push for exams or procedures that are not necessary, and he will answer my questions on how to treat some specific health issues. I did ask him a few questions about the use of specific products once Sweetie was diagnosed with coccidia and he was honest enough to suggest only what was necessary, not to make me spend money for nothing or to treat properly Sweetie.

    I asked a few vets if they treated bearded dragons in the past. And everyone in my region, either in pet shops or other bearded dragons owner swore by my vet. Even the other vet clinic referred me to him.

    It might be some indications that a vet is good and knowledgeable on reptiles. Keep us posted.
     
  25. Axe

    Axe Well-Known Member

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    That's a very common misconception that many people make. Beardies inhabit many many different environments in the wild, preferring grassland, wooded areas, etc. When they are on "sand" in the wild, it's not the loose sand like you would purchase in bags here in the pet store (or the washed playsand from home depot), nor is it like the Sahara or any other true DESERT, it's very hard packed dirt/sand/soil, and is very difficult for them to ingest mouthfuls of substrate.

    They will also regularly swim in the wild, water isn't something usually associated with deserts.
     
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