History of color/morphs/lines and breeders

Discussion in 'Bearded Dragons' started by CheriS, Jan 16, 2006.

  1. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

    *** This has been broken down into 2 sections, since it has gotten so long with updates and making sure everything is correct on here, most of the breeders mentioned have all contacted and verified the info and are happy to see it displayed here and correct.***

    Sorry, this is kind of long, but explains the history of dragons and how some names came about and also how the confusion happens and what leads to a lot on unintentional inbreeding.

    The majority of dragons are regular/common, and those are great dragons. There are many colors that appear in the wild, such as yellow, red, orange, gold, tans, grays and browns.

    Some of the names you hear are just names the person breeding them have stuck on them and some of them get pretty wild with the names, like a jungle or tigers and not colors at all, but a breeding line, like Sandfire. Some of the "titles", most people have no clue what they are talking about and claim them only to sell the animals better they think, but it is false advertising....

    Example, Joel Roberts (producer of some of the Godzilla x goldfroggy line) and I were at a show in Tampa a few years ago and looking at some tan to gold babies that did not look very healthy. The lady selling them informed us they where Sandfires... why did she claim they were sandfires we asked? she said
    Pretty lame since dragons of many colors do appear in nature, also tells you how much this so breeder knows about bearded dragons. Checking further we found out her dragons came from a pet store that buys their dragons from Flukers (not some place I would want ANY dragons from)............... miles from being a Sandfire or related to any dragon from Sandfire Ranch, (although I guess Flukers could have some Sandfire lines). But this is how most of the people claiming to sell Sandfires seem to come to call their dragons Sandfires. A Sandfire is a selective breeding colors, created at the Sandfire Ranch or from dragons that were bought from them, but not exclusively those colors, so it is more a breeder and his lines, as you can have the vivid yellows, reds and gold from other breeders.

    Some breeders in the 90's selectively breed some colors, Sandfire Ranch worked with breeding yellows to yellows and reds to reds to make the colors more vivid, and they called these their "Sandfire gold and Sandfire reds" and when mixed they called them Sandfire RedXGold (which many are orange or have highlight colors of yellow on reds/oranges or oranges with golds/yellows), at the same time, Kevin Dunne of Dragons Den was doing the same thing with dragons from different lines (a lot imported) and calling them Bloods (reds) or Sunburst (yellows) Snows (whites).The Germans were breeding the large boned dragons that come from one area of Australia and calling them German Giants. Then in the US another breeder called Weis Reptiles was bringing in a lot of those German bred larger dragons and breeding them here in the US, then selling them to other breeders. He also introduced the Red Flames and sold some of those to others. Those breeders bred them to their existing lines or others they bought from him, so now you have a Red Flame that is crossed with a German Giant(Weis) and a Blood (DragonsDen) or Sandfire Red or more recently a Cawley Red which is the same thing.

    The colors for dragons are gold, yellow, red, orange, tan, brown, grey, white (all appear in nature, but the whites/snows). Some may have other shades in them from mixing colors, such as the ones with lavender sidebars.

    Some of the well known established lines are Sandfire, Sunburst/Citrus/Lemon, German Giants, Bloods, Flames, Cawley Red Ex:
    http://www.alphadragonz.com/images/cinder_large.jpg , Snows Ex:
    http://www.alphadragonz.com/images/cleobreeders_large.jpg

    Other names you may see that come from these lines, not created by the breeders, but are renamed by them as their lines are Georgia Peach, Corals, Salmon, Florida Orange, Gems, Tigers, Jungles, Sunglow etc (in some cases these are the 3rd tier of the original Dragon Den's Bloods. Weis's RedFlames or Sandfire Reds), they were Bloods, then called Flames, then called these new names). So someone may breed a Georgia Peach to a Blood thinking they are different names, breeders and from extreme different areas of the country, and they are actually 1/2 siblings or Nephew and Aunt.

    Dachiu's and SundialReptiles (I like the way they title their dragons from the parents, there is no confusion there of who they are from) have also produced some of the nicest Hypo's available, but now so have some other breeders at this point from their same pairings, knowing where they came from is very important as they or their parents may have come from them originally.

    Recessive traits (as far as we know) are Translucent
    http://www.alphadragonz.com/images/glassy1%20breedder.jpg (you can see through their skin), Marketed Leucistics
    http://www.dragonsdenherp.com/htm2/dragons.htm (these are not true leucistics, they do not breed true, but more a snow line) Albino's
    http://www.reptilerooms.com/articles/pogon...ves/albino3.jpg (there have been 3 clutches with some in them that have hatched) Hypomelanistic's Pastels http://www.dachiu.com/gallery/hypoxpastel.jpg. Black eyes and last is clear nails (which is a different recessive trait than Hypo's, so you can have Hypo's with or without clear nails).

    Hope this clears up some confusion and lets people realize how important it is becoming to know where dragons lines come from and to avoid casual breeding.

    Imported dragons are very vital to the survival of bearded dragons in the US as a healthy viable species and breeding without knowing the past genetic lines are very risky at best, and not smart at worst. You can not go by the fact of a line name, a breeder, a location in the country, that is shooting in the dark and if done may create some real genetic problems as too many have already found out.

    Part 2 will be on another post and is on some examples of actually genetic lines and how some thigns can become so crossed up by the breeders.

    Rather interesting story to show how one thing can get so messed up and people confused... and also some questionable ethics of a breeder. Kevin Dunne (who really is one person that worked hard to create healthy unique colors with generations of dragons) selectively breed some nice light bright yellows for years/generations, until he got what he called the Sunburst line, gorgeous dragons with like a neon brightness http://www.dragonsdenherp.com/htm2/dragons.htm (scroll to the Sunburst) He sold some of these to other breeders/future breeders who already had some of his earlier yellows.

    A man named Aaron, of dragonaddict.com got out of dragons and sold his breeding group of yellow dragons that were from 3 other breeders lines. A "Lemon Yellow" line from AtomicLizardRanch.net , this line was also know as Lemon-Citrus, prior these were also called Citrus (this is back in 1997) and Tony from Yellowdragon.com was also working with this bloodline called Citrus/Lemon. He took "Citrus AKA Lemon Citrus or Lemon Yellow" from Atomic and crossed them to Kevin's "Sunburst" and continued to call them "Citrus". Kevin had been breeding these Sunburst for years before and they also were called Citrus by others, this is the earliest anyone remembers the citrus name being used and that was in 1997 and used by several breeders ALONG with their own names they changed.

    In 2003/2004 a new person to breeding called Terri of Fire & Ice Dragons bought the dragon group that was from Kevin's Sunburst line, AtomicLizard's Lemon Line, YellowDragon's Yellow lines, and Dachiu's yellow lines, breed them and advertised them as a citrus morphs. In the summer of 2004 issue of Dragon Care Magazine, she claimed she developed the citrus line!!! She even created a registry online that she tries to market to others, so she could register and claim herself as the creator of that Citrus line. That was pretty questionable ethic IMO, considering all she did was buy a dragon that other breeder's had spent years selectively breeding stock to produce a nice bright yellow color. She called it a name that had been used for them for at least 5 year before she ever had a dragon, then claimed to be the originator of it. The MAJORITY of these Yellow/Lemon/Citrus (whatever they are called) all go back to Sandfire Ranch just a few generations back, so if anyone that has any called citrus and are breeding them with anything from the above lines, chances are they are inbreeding within 2-3 generations.

    The citrus are Kevin Dunne's Sunburst line, Atomic's Lemon Line and YellowDragons Yellow line.... ALL THAT USED THE NAME CITRUS ALSO, but many people now think that this other person created it, and like her may bred a Sunburst to a citrus or a citrus to a sunburst or a lemon to a citrus, actually inbreeding very close relations (and the same line/color, not realizing it since she did this). How would anyone know that a dragon from Kevin in California may actually be a sibling or close relation to a dragon she breed in Pa or MD and sells under a different name and with claiming to create it? .. very misleading to people and potential damaging to the dragons.

    IF anyone has any of these dragons, DON'T BE FOOLED, and inbreed them unknowingly, this is were those dragons came from:

    In them are:
    Citrus/Lemon - came from Atomic Lizard ranch and Kevin Dunne's Sunburst breed by Aaron of DragonAddict
    Sandfire Yellow /Yellow Red Desert came from Desert Dwellers and from Dachui's, both prior coming from Sandfire Ranch

    At this point, unless they are crossed into new stock, they will be related back to each other... too closely, there really is no way to avoid it.

    Here is a good example that most people who have been around dragons very long will recognize:

    Flame, the father of many popular babies right now: People know he is a RedFlame cross with a Sandfire, but what are his babies a cross off, as you NEVER see the name of the mother that Chris Allen bred him with, that made him so well know.... MANY came from a female of the Godzilla X Goldfroggy line. I big beautiful female that was extremely hearty and vivid in color. All that line was remarkable............ so Flame's babies are certainly nice, but a huge factor in that may be the mother! Some others came from a pairing back to another Sandfire, so I do not know abou the background of those.

    Flame from Chris Allen (now owned by Sunshine Dragons) is a Redflame X Sandfire cross. So if you breed him or any of his offspring to something - say a FlamingTiger you may not realize that their fathers/grandfathers are the same dragon. HOW?

    Redflame came from Pete Weis of Florida (WeisDragons.com) the first year he had them. They were awesome colors the first year, but stressed easily so he outcrossed them it is believed as they changed colors after that first year.
    The Sandfire part of him came from Nick, The east coast rep for Sandfire-not all Sandfire'ss are produced at the Ranch in California, many are produced by satellite breeders in other states)

    Bred him to:

    The Flaming is a cross that Dachiu's did. That cross is out of the same Red Flame as above - to a FireTiger female from Kevin Dunne, out of bloods/reds... they potentially have the same father or one grandfather at least.

    So

    1. Flame or offspring bred with ANY RedFlame or Weis red color dragons would be extremely close genetically.

    2. Flame or offsrping bred with any Sandfire Red or RedXGold can be very close

    3. Flame or offsrpings bred with any FireTiger would also be very close

    4. Flame or offspring bred with any Flaming Tiger could be within 2-3 generations, so very close

    5. Flame or offspring bred in the Blood line might be close

    None of these should be bred back into the founding line, who in this case is Flame who is a RedFlame X Sandfire cross nor his 1st and 2nd generaton offsrpings OR to any Godzilla X Goldfroggy line or cross from that line as that line is only be a few generations old.
     
    Livsdragons likes this.
  2. KAOSRacing

    KAOSRacing Embryo

    As a former Tonkinese Cat breeder all I can say is WOW!!!

    CheriS this is outstanding information.
     
  3. outback_fire

    outback_fire Embryo

    I ran into the same problem, a breeder was selling some beardies as clearnails hypo sandfire... tehy claimed that it was their own "special" sandfire line, I informed them that they did not have a sandfire line... they didn't, i saw the mother and father... a normal and a pretty red beardie... I walked over to Evergreen reptiles stand and saw the same thing, except, they are reputale breeders, I said, are these true sandfires? he said " yes, they are from sandfire dragon ranch, mailloux himself... so I walked out with a true Sandfire X hypo pastel with clear nails... not a light colored red dragon that was as far as i could see, in shed at the time...
     
  4. kephy

    kephy Moderator Staff Member

    This is excellent reading Cheri, it should go in the knowledgebase.
     
  5. outback_fire

    outback_fire Embryo

    definalty!
     
  6. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

    I will move this to the top of the forum for sticky/announcements.

    I have had about a half dozen emails of other sites requesting to reprint it.
     
  7. Just_Some_Guy

    Just_Some_Guy Embryo

    Great took me a long time but itss really good thanks
     
  8. gargoyle08

    gargoyle08 Embryo

    Very impressive indeed, like all of CheriS's work!

    I also think this should because a knowledge database item.
     
  9. clarinet45

    clarinet45 Embryo

    thank you for the info Cheri!
     
  10. thepogona

    thepogona Embryo

    That's brilliant; awesome! I've always had an interest in lineage, and genomic info, etc.
     
  11. Fearl3ss465

    Fearl3ss465 Embryo

    I have always wonderd what my Bearded Dragon could be but he looks like a Sandfire but I cant be sure cuz I bought him from PETCO
     
  12. carmine

    carmine Embryo

    History of...

    Sounds interseting. Thanks.
     
  13. Tokage

    Tokage Embryo

    RE: History of...

    that was a truely interesting read
     
  14. bez89

    bez89 Embryo

    RE: History of...

    are sunsetdragonranch's sandfires really sandfires and bloods really bloods etc.
     
  15. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

    RE: History of...

    We have notice that some breeders that have any color but tans in their collection, advertise them as Sandfire, and none of their lines come from the Sandfire line. Like the breeder I discussed above, I can guarantee that every dragons she sold, and in turn had babies and are sold, are advertized as Sandfires and have never been near Sandfire Ranch.

    The breeders know it that start saying that and it just balloons from there. Unless someone can prove thier dragons are from where they claim, do not believe it..... look at all the threads on FaunaClassifieds of people claiming to have for sale dragons from someones lines, only for that breeder to come on and state they never sold to this person, or on that was so funny was someone claiming a dragon from Mystical-Dragons and Matthew of that company saying it was not possible as he had never breed any dragons when the dragon that was for sale was hatched....

    Sandfire has come to be associated with a color, which is strange as those colors also appear in nature
     
  16. bez89

    bez89 Embryo

    RE: History of...

    so sandfire is not a color? is it a gene or does it carry a certian trait? is it just a name given to a bd that just caught on? also why are german giants giant?

    i want to be real clear on this. i want to know everythng. this is really interesting stuff.
     
  17. clarinet45

    clarinet45 Embryo

    RE: History of...

    no, 'sandfire' is not a primary, secondary, or even tertiary color! It's not even a name associated with a certain pattern. It's just a name that's carried by the dragons produced by Sandfire Dragon Ranch. My feng is only 1/2 sandfire, but only her grandparents were actually bred by SandFire dragon ranch.
    History of GG's
     
  18. bez89

    bez89 Embryo

    RE: History of...

    i purchased a dragon labeled as sandfire red from a breeder and not sandfire dragon ranch. does that mean it's not considered a sandfire? why are so many bds sandfire? i see a lot of them.

    also, what is the difference between sunburst and normal yellow? is it just that sunburst kind of glow?
    all these different names are confusing.
    :)
     
  19. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

    RE: History of...

    Your dragon *could* be from a sandfire line, or it could have no relationship whatsoever with ANY sandfire line. Only the breeder who keeps breeding line records can tell you and prove that. I think that the majority of dragons being sold as sandfire is just like that lady at the Tampa show and they are not related whatsoever and none of their prior generations ever where near Sandfire Ranch. People saw something in a magazine just like she did and thinks that hers look similar to them (actually those looked nothing like them) or they are using it as a marketing gimmick to sell them, that can be good or bad, depending on how you feel about Sandfire Ranch or their lines.

    It is confusing and has caused many private home breeders (and some larger ones) to really trash the breeding lines in the US. That is why I wrote this, I get tired of seeing people in a panic as to why the babies they just hatched have kinked tails, are dying or are very weak when they claim they bought them from different breeders in different parts of the country. That means nothing, they can still be full siblings even years apart of related in the 2,3 or 4th generations and those are usually going to have some if not a lot of genetic problems or terrible immune systems and other problems.

    Since bearded dragons stated in the US from a fairly small gene pool, it is very had to avoid inbreeding unless you keep or get really good records from the breeder. Sadly most of the larger breeders in the US kept no records whatsoever and had groups of dragons living together, they can not even tell you who the mother or father of a clutch were, it could have been one of many.

    Sunburst is a line of dragons that Kevin Dunne selectively only breed the bright lighter yellows to each other for several generations (and he outcrossed them also to avoid messed up genetics) until he produced AND they breed fairly true, bright vivid yellow dragons. He called them sunburst, but they are also known as citrus and lemons. They came from normal yellows, but by selective breeding, you are more sure of getting the lighter yellows and their offspring will also be more likely to produce those.............. although you can also have some throwbacks to the brassy or darker golds.

    One thing, a true Sunburst or Citrus that comes from the ones Kevin produced are very hearty and good size, not small and weaker dragons like ones that have been inbreed and sold recently by others breeders. Some breeders try to skip the careful breeding to make money fast on a popular morph and will breed to related dragons to produce that color in the next generation (we saw this recently with the trans and how sickly they were 2 years ago .... not taking the time to create hets or dragons that carry a trait and breeding it to other lines to make strong unrelated dragons.

    Those people to me are not quality breeders, they are business people/marketing pros, that are capitalizing on the animals or the public and at the expense of both. A quality breeder is someone who is watching out for the long term well being of a species and producing healthy babies that do not die off the first month a new owner has them... or cost more in vet bills than the owner paid for them in a short time.
     
  20. clarinet45

    clarinet45 Embryo

    RE: History of...

    What breeder? yes, you can buy a sandfire or a Chris Allen red or a Sunburst or such from a breeder other than the orginal creator of the name and it still be legit, but I would do some research and get the names of the parents and so forth. I had a lot of fun finding out my dragons' lineages!
    A yellow is yellow, a sunburst is yellow. What do you mean by 'glow'? like radioactive? lol, no, it's JUST A NAME.
    Example: you want to buy a dog. But what kind of dog? there are different kinds and they look different but in the end they are all the same species. I grew up with labradors, a golden, a chocolate and a black. But they were just yellow, brown and black dogs. Can you sell a brownish dog as a purebred chocolate lab? sure and some people would be none the wiser, but it's unethical. So the AKC and breeders keep track of a dog's papers and lineage and so forth.
    Like dragon breeders should and all you have to do is ask and if the breeder has nothing to hide they should tell you where your dragon's parents and grandparents and so forth came from.
     

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