History of color/morphs/lines and breeders

RE: History of...

Chris Allen Red, now, what is that?

This is a good example of how a name changes and you lose contact with what it really is or who the draogns are related too. I have seen several times now recently, babies called Chris Allen Reds, but Chris Allen has not breed or sold any dragons for a few years and when he did breed, it was only for a few years/clutches (But darn nice babies!!). Also, he did not call them Chris Allen Reds, but called them RedFlame/Sandfire X Zilla/Goldfroggy's.... so people KNEW where they came from. Since he stopped breeding, I have now seen Flame's offsprings called Chris Allen Red, Chris Allen Flame and Chris Allen RedFlame............ and the Zilla/Goldfroggy has totally been lost along with the Sandfire, yet that is the genetics of all his babies that chris Allen bred and someone (I am sure they already have, have breed his offsrping back into the Zilla/Goldfroggy Line and the Sandfire red line........ oops!

But, this is a good example of what happens with name changes and them getting so confusings, I really perfer the names of the cross according to the parents/grandparents etc... then there is no doubt who is related to who.

 

RE: History of...

For those that already have read this thread prior to 4/14/06, I have add more info onto this so that we can keep it accurate and a good history. I have heard from most of the breeders mentions in these threads and correct any info that was not accurate or clariifed it and added some examples that ahve been provided by them to help avoid inbreeding, So, you might want to read the first post as a lot has changed on it

 

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Yes, i knew sheo wasn't a TRUE Chris allen when i got hi cause chris had stopped breeding, but i checked out his parents and lineage, they were huge and beautiful so i went for it! and i wasn't disappointed! Needless to say, when i breed feng and sheo i'm not marketing them as Chris Allen Red X sandfire red/gold Xpeach hypos. That would just 1) untrue, as sheo is not red, more of a chocolate. 2) feng is neither red nor 'gold' but an awesome orange, 3) i don't want to clinge to other people's names and 4) i like Sara's Chocolate Oranges better :lol:

 

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i purchased her from sunset dragon ranch. she was sold to me as a sandfire red but she looks more orange so would she be a sandfire orange instead?

 

RE: History of...

Clarinet,

My point was that there is no such thing as a chris allen red... he never called them that while breeding or since, that is something that has popped up from others in the last several months. IT will creat more problems as now the Redflame/Sandfire x Zilla/gooldfroggy is gone, people are more apt to breed "chris allen reds" into those lines again. Most the time we check we find that the people using this term, do not have a chris allen line dragons at all. They bought a drgon from someone that was selling them at a show or one of the freebie auctions site. Which we have found you really can not trust people selling on those or what they claim. I think there is more intended deception going on those and a dumping ground for inbreed problems than anywhere including some pet stores.

There is someone on there right now selling Lawsons aka Rankins as "colored rankins" (lawsons are all one color and pattern with VERY rare exceptions) which are cross breds of Lawsons and vitticeps... BAD NEWS as the last time someone tried that a decade ago (calling them VIttikins) it resulted in many egg bound females and dragons on the market that are mixed and do not seem to grow properly.. . so owners do not know they have a cross breed. What's really bad is this person denies publically now that they are crosses because she knows people will not buy them and she wants to claim creating a "new Morph"

Yet, we know for a fact that she has admitted that they were crossed with color vitticeps... and she was calling them Drankins initally (crosses of dragons and rankins), that she has done it for a few generations and has many of them........... so this line is so trashed and should never be breed or represented as Lawson/Rankins ... once she learned that, she started denying in new ads they were crosses and calling them pure vitticeps and a *new morph she created*..... yet you can tell they are crosses. or at least I can and this one has a beard!!!!

Here is one of the ads, look at the side profile photo of the dragon and see the beard that Lawsons/rankins are not suppose to have and also look at the back pattern.
http://www.reptileauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=4050

Someone will buy it and and believe her. Someone actually asked her about it being a cross on the ad, but she removed the question and another person on the feedback has complained about one they got from the same breeder/clutch being a hybrid that they were not told about until later and she denies it on the feedback now. This same breeder has a VERY LONG thread on FaunaClassifieds about misrepresenting other species and their lines that she sells. She claimed another it was from another breeders line in an ad, and he called her on it because he never sold her any he bred. It's sad that they do this stuff and get away with it so much. It gives this industry a bad name, rips people off and harms so many animals, but what can you do?

All of this unethical stuff contributes to more confusion and risk to the species

 

RE: History of...

wow, that's horrible. do you have the link to the BOI thread?

 

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I had to go look for it, here it is
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/sho...highlight=wendy

Its really long as she just does not see where what she said or advertized is unethical and there is some other guy that she bought animals from that wants to be her knight. I stayed out of that mess as I already have had problems with her trying to sell some who asked my opinions on some really under sized dragons with mouth gaps and deflated fat pads. There also is an issue where there are two names, emails and accounts, she claims one is her mother, but she is the ones that seems to sell and talk to everyone :/

 

So if I wanted to get into breeding dragons, which breeders would be the best choices to avoid inbreeding? Would it be a good idea to choose a few from the major breeders (Sandfire, Dragons Den, Atomic)? Do you know of other reputable breeders that have 'pure' (unrelated to the above 3 and not inbred) dragons?


Thanks

 

This is not a question that can be answered the way you think.

MOST dragons that breeders are working with, are not only inbred, they are from the same breeders. There are onlya fewl that keep good records like Kevin of Dragons Den and will tell you if they have been outcrossed or bred into imported lines. There are only a handful of newer breeders that actual know the genetic lines of their dragons back 2 or more generations or are breeding them into fresh imported lines such as AlphaDragonZ or Neverland Dragon, Mystical_Dragons, Sundial (there may be more that I do not know about)

I have never really got to know the people at Atomic, so I do not know about their lines, but I have heard only good things about them

The ones to really worry about and question are the small breeder that are just getting into this or have only a few dragons...... and made sure they know who they came from a few generations back...... because so many of them are breeding close relations and do not know it,

 

RE: History of...

my dragons are 'snow dragons' is it likely that they are related..?

 

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Hello, this is truly interesting reading. I have bolo who's pattern looks that of a sandfire, but his color changes he is a dark grey and in the natural sun light, he will become a really light flourescent green tint.



Thanks for all you do Cheri!
~Tish

 

RE: History of...

Sorry if the picture is too big...

~Tish

 

RE: History of...

MOSt dragon patterns look like that and it has nothing to do with being from the Sandfire Ranch or their Dragons. Weis Dragons, Dunne Dragons, Dachui's Dragons AlphaDragonZ Dragons etc all look the same. People just seem to have a tendency to add Sandfire to all dragons, although the majority have no relationship to them

 

RE: History of...

That is so interesting... So basically it is hard to tell? Looking at Bolo, could you tell where he is from.

 

RE: History of...

No, sorry.. rarely can you ever tell that....there are a few lines that you can recognise the line as they have unique traits. I had someone visit out house this weekend and when I saw one of their dragons I thought it looks famailiar, when they stated the dragons age and situation how they came about getting it, I knew who the breeder was and also had photo's of the dragons father.

We imported some babies a few years ago, and some of those people can recognise as they had a unique face, eyes and patterns on them also (not all of them did)

I think Kevin Dunne's Sunburst line is fairly easy to recognize dragons that come from that line (those are also where the citrus come from), Zilla X Goldfroggys are sometimes easy to recognize as they aslo have big builds with fleshy chins and some have the rasied up eyes of the mother and of course you can tell the transleucent and those mostly all orginated with Sandfire ranch,

But most dragons you can not tell by looking at them what line or breeder they come from

 

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So is Sandfire a line? or is it yellows, reds, and oranges mixed? thanks!

Corey

 

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yellows, reds, and oranges mixed are all color that appear in nature, it has nothing to do with sandfire ranch

That is a breeder farm that bred yellow to yellow and red to red to get more vivid colors, like many othter breeder also did or do, its what that farm called their dragon and what many others in error call theirs which did not come from that breeder.

I know someone that just produced the most unique pattern color of a dragon I have ever seen, and she only has one of them.....I will see If I can get her to come and post a the photo, the dragon actually has two tones of stripped colors going down its body with several stripes right into the and under the side spines

 

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So Bloods and Flames are actually reds? same with Sunburst too right? thanks!

Corey

 

RE: History of...

No, a Blood is an acutal breeding line, so is a Red Flame and a Sunburst is a yellow line that Kevin Dunne developed over serveral generation of breeding a certain color of yellow......... that is also what is called citrus today.

A sandfire is a dragon from Sandfire ranch that they breed for yellows or red. or in some cases mixed those, it is not any red dragon or any yellow dragon. and it does not mean it is better or worse that Joes' common gold.

That is one o the problems. a new breeder comes along and decided to name his Red Flame X Sandfire a Gerogai Melon and then you do not know that dragons genetics anymore, actually , novice breeders have really trashed the breeding lines in the US badly!

 

RE: History of...

waow! thanks.

Corey