Mice vs. Rats...Nutritional values?

Discussion in 'Feeder Forum' started by Clementine_3, Jul 23, 2006.

  1. Clementine_3

    Clementine_3 ReptileBoards Addict

    Messages:
    7,400
    My new quest is to find out what the difference really is and which is REALLY better to feed. I keep reading posts that say 'rats are better than mice' but I honestly can't figure out why that is being said. I found a comparison chart on RodentPro and the values for protien, fat and ash are similar (based on size) but nothing is listed for calcium and I can't find (yet) the values for either rats or mice. Also, what is actually NEEDED, on average, for a healthy snake? Does anyone know the 'basic' needs for a snake's protien, calcium and fat intake? Just because a rat may be slightly higher in protien does not necessarily mean a mouse doesn't provide plenty of protien.
    So...two questions here:
    1) What is the calcium content of mice vs. rats (at various sizes for a fair comparison of the two)
    2) What are the actual nutritional needs for a snake (I know each species would have different requirements, but generally)
    I am looking for facts not opinions...it doesn't matter what Johnny said on another forum ;)
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  3. drpainphd

    drpainphd Member

    Messages:
    262
    Clementine, prepare to have your mind blown. well not really but this is an interesting article about feeding http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf I'm relatively sure that there is currently no real proof that either rodent is better. It's all just opinion. Although there is one little exception that someone brought up on another forum, stating "When making the choice between say a jumbo mouse and a very young rat (both items appx the same size) the calcium argument IS valid since an adult of ANY endoskeletal species WILL have more signifcant calcium levels than a similarly sized juvenile. I.E. bitty jr rat vs big*ss adult mouse - mouse will have more calcium."

    It's opinion but it sounds pretty accurate.
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  5. Clementine_3

    Clementine_3 ReptileBoards Addict

    Messages:
    7,400
    Yes, very good reading! Thanks. It did provide data on Ca., and it would make sense that a bigger mouse would have more than a pinky rat....or at least I figured as much.
    I'm still (perhaps more) curious about the minimum requirements for a snake though. I'm going to assume that they don't actually need a ton of fat due to lack of exercise in captivity and too much protien isn't a good thing either....too much anything is not good!! So, does anyone know what a lazy captive bred snake needs vs. what is provided with rodents? If we get to the bottom of that then the 'which is better' question will actually answer itself ;)
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  7. olivia

    olivia Embryo

    Messages:
    10
    But keep in mind that nutrition on paper doesn't equal nutrition in practice. Just because nutritional data say there's a certain amount of protein and nutrients does not mean that's what your snake will be getting. Ultimately, it depends on how well your snake can digest the animal. The easier a food item is to digest, the more nutrition can be acquired. For example, you get more nutrition from eating a warm hamburger than a cold hamburger because the warm hamburger is easier for you to digest. This has to do with the proteins in the warm hamburger being denatured (unfolded). Yet both hamburgers are nutritionally the same. The same will hold true for feeding snakes. It's easier for your snake to digest multiple smaller items than one oversized item. And it's easier for your snake to digest food if it has access to a wider temperature gradient. This is why you'll notice that corns kept without a heat pad grow more slowly than corns that have a heat pad even if they're fed the exact same regimen--the snake that has a heat pad was able to get more nutrition from its food.

    Anyway, I love and prefer to use rats as feeders once I need anything larger than adult mice. Snake poop after a rat meal is much better to clean after since there aren't clumps of fur and it's not as smelly. I also think the assumption that older animals are more nutritious is misleading. You wouldn't say that an elderly human has more calcium than a teenager would you? No; old people are more prone to osteoporosis, broken bones, and calcium deficiency. That's essentially the equivalent that you're getting with jumbo mice, which are usually old, retired breeders. I thaw all of my mice and rats by hand and can literally feel the difference when I handle them. Younger rats feel more robust whereas jumbo mice are bony and not as solidly built, even when compared to adult mice.
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  9. Clementine_3

    Clementine_3 ReptileBoards Addict

    Messages:
    7,400
    All good points, thanks! When I said 'bigger mouse' as opposed to a pinky rat I meant adult, not retired breeder (typically sold as 'jumbo') as I know they are worn out and spent...much like the folks at the nursing home! I am trying to compare 'like' things (I know they are not, hence the whole issue), rats and mice that are healthy and raised as feeders by reputable suppliers/breeders, properly feed and cared for and not retired breeders.
    My python may never eat an adult rat, but I want to be sure that whatever he ends up eating is the best it can possibly be for his health. He will be eating f/t of whatever it is, they will always be thawed in baggies in water, he will always have the correct temps and humidity etc. those variables will not change, so it really will come down to what he needs when. He currently is eating peach fuzzy mice and will eventually need bigger prey. Therein lies my dilemma....move to rats or stick with mice? He will probably never achieve adult rat status and may only peak at adult mouse size....I'd like to determine what his dietary needs are and if those would be better met with an adult mouse or equal sized rat. So, we get back to.....what are the actual needs of a snake?
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  11. Ratsicles

    Ratsicles Embryo

    Messages:
    11
    I was about to bring up alot of the same points as Olivia. Even large mice can be old breeders ... There are numerous strains of mice, sometimes to get a better litter count you go with a mouse that may not achieve jumbo status.

    My personal opinion ... is that younger animals bones have not yet hardened making them easier to digest and a better source of calcium ... this is based on common sense though so may have no real world value.

    While feeding multiple smaller items may be easier to digest. Smaller items is a relative term ... smaller may be fuzzies to one person and hoppers to the next. With one item its easier to gauge an item that is 1.5 times its girth.

    Its really going to come down to your practices and the source from which you obtain prey. 1 rat from a good source is usually better than 3 mice from a mediocre source.

    The Rodentpro source in post one is derived from the USDA source in post 2.

    Bryan.
     
  12. Solitia

    Solitia Embryo

    Messages:
    1
    Unfortunately it doesn't look as though you ever got an answer to your post and I am not sure that you even check this forum any longer, but I wanted to put in my two cents as I am researching something similar. So far the only good advice I have gotten has been from my girlfriend who is a registered vet tech specialized in nutrition. She has talked to me at great lengths about the nutritional values of prepared food for cats, dogs and etc. She has dealt with birds and reptiles as well, but in smaller quantities. She's told me that there is a great deal of speculation as to what is proper for these animals with the "raw" versus "processed" foods... on and on ad nauseum. Bleh.

    The long of the short of her discussions with me have boiled down to, essentially, we literally don't KNOW what is best for the animals, especially given that each animal is different, as has been said above. We can only go with our best bet and, as has been proven in the 50s and 60s with dimestore turtles... people guess and say it's good enough.

    I would say to get in contact with a good herp vet and talk to them about nutritional values. They went to school for this, they studied herps and they all stay educated on what is new in husbandry studies. I have an awesome vet out of Toledo, Ohio that I drive over three hours to get to and he's amazing, especially when it comes to nutrition and pathology. Most of them will want to do a wellness check, but you can take in a list of questions two miles long and they will answer them for you and be appreciative that you are trying to be as responsible as possible. Given the pet owners I've heard stories about from my girlfriend... it would be a welcome change.

    Also, if you've gotten any other information or taken anyone's advice from here (since the last post was dated 2006) and have had it backed up, please share? This is one of the better informational posts I've come across in my last few days of study.
     
  13. supernova

    supernova Member

    Messages:
    179
    Well,it's hard to tell what is better,From my experience Rats grow larger and the result is a single serving meal. I have five balls and only one is on mice (not my choice) but i'm working on changing that,I don't see any issues as a majority of the nutritional values are close between the two, however If you feed pinkies or pups in juvenile snakes i would recommend using a vitamin D3 to help with liver development and digestion.

    A lot of "feeder breeders" are staying away from mice as rats are more cost effective and easier to raise. Below is the chart I use as reference that covers the important stuff and is based off of the PDF file that drpanphd posted above. I thought this would help settle questions regarding the difference between the two. Chickens are a whole other story and i wouldn't personally recommend them unless your snake is very large ,not a ball, but some other insanely large garden hose shaped creature. hope this helps.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    EDIT: Formatting broke....grrr...convert to PDF---->> see attachment. (y)
     

    Attached Files:

    Sscotty and JEFFREH like this.

Share This Page