hello all! I hope this post goes better than my last one...I usually catch a lot of flak for my theroies ^_^ I have a vieled Cham (my third) and am thinking of getting a sav monitor (my girlfriend second) I would like to set up a "free roaming" enclsure that houses them both. I have done TONS of research for Chams and am very familiar with thier husbandry. Have done some research on Savanah's and my girlfriend has already had one for 7 years. I am thinking of a LARGE open air enclsure, and I realize these two lizards would not be fond of eachother should they have an encounter; so I am thinking a large plastic contsainer with a mesh "top" two thirds the way up, with large enough screening to allow crickets and worms to pass through but ensure the two lizards don't meet. one of my main concerns is moisture (the Cham needs a lot of water) so either the misters will have to be set-up to dissipate before they hit the sand, or the drippers will have to be set-up to fill the swimming pool. Either way, I think this will be my biggest hurdle anyways, this is a compleet troll. I am looking for any and all comments good and bad I just need some brain-prodding. If your opinion is that there is no way it will work, please let me know why. Thanks in advance Jason
i'm not too sure of what you are meaning. do you think you can draw up a picture of the idea you're talking about?
think of a bath tub. About three quaters of the way up is "mesh" that makes the "top" of the savanah enclosure, and is also the "bottom" of the Cham free roam space. Lights and misters hanging from cieling as with most free roam cham set-ups. A pool and warm pad on the bottom for Savan. So, essentialy there are two environments going on, seperated by some mesh on a horizontal plane. The mesh is large enough to allow feeders to pass through, but not the lizzards
no there is no way that will work. you cant keep a sav environment with a heat pad. they need a basking spot around 140, which will overheat the cam and burn up the humidity. not to mention the sav will constantly stalk the cham trying to find a way up and the cham will stress there are hundreds more reasons. that is why nobody else does it.
I can see why you cop a lot of flak for your theories. Scrap this one. Too many reasons to list, but three good ones are the unsuitability of mesh enclosures for monitors, the problems with putting two animals from entirely different environments together and combining different sized animals which can potentially become predator prey.
oh c'mon if you can imagine it, it is possible. I hadn't thought about the stress on the Cham but it is a very good point. The basking spot is no problem because the Cham will be over it, and it would actually be good to burn up the humidity from above. The Savanah would only have Mesh above it, plastic all around and under. And, you say nobody else does it, but I have seen it with a bearded and a Cham, that's where I got the idea. They lived together for more then three years. I do know that eventually the Sav will get too big and it will no longer work, but, if the substrate and water drainage can be worked out, it should not be that big a challange. I will see if I can draw something up in detail, this idea has been brewing for a couple years. Thanks for the input guys, got anymore?
depending on what mesh you use (its already been said its bad....) a sav can rip right through it. keeping a chameleon on a screen bottom isnt that good ether, it can walk on it...but that is tempting fate...a chameleon walking right above a savanah with its feet sticking through the mesh. you will have a ton of heat coming up through teh chamls enclosure, that alone may kill it depending on specie. humidity is a huge issue. i would love to see that setup work good with a sav or a beardie. got a link? i have nothing but doubt that persons bearie/cham is setup properly for the animals.
how about instead of wasting your time and probably killing 2 animals. just make 2 cages and stackthem on top of eachother. i want to see this beardie/cham too.
Ripping up mesh is the least of your worries when you keep monitors in a mesh enclosure. Dehydration is the issue. ClmbrJ, since you are one of those people that asks for comments then refuses to believe them, why not just kill the chameleon and monitor now and put them out of their misery. No matter how you sketch your idea, the basic premise still sucks: two animals from entirely different habitats being forced to share one environment.
I think most of your responses are appropriate, but I am not an idoit. Stacking two cages on top of one another is essentially what I am doing. And if the Cham is on the bottom of his environment, then the upper section is set up wrong! I have never seen any of my three chams on the bottom two feet of there cage. I appreciate your responses and input. I don't make rash descions so I will have to think awhile about whether to follow through with the idea or not. I understand all of your doubt, and can promise you it wouldn't be done unless I thought it absolutly safe for both animals. Sorry I don't have a link to the beardie/cham enclosure but it was not on the web, but was a breader friend in Houston. He had been keeping Herps of all sorts for a long time, but has passed away now and I wish I had gotten some advice on this before he did Perhaps instead of just blanketly stating that it won't work some of you should ask how I plan to get around problems. For example the "mesh" I reffer to is more like wire than screen and there is no way the Sav could tear through it unless he worked on one spot for DAYS. Humitdy is a big concern but if the particulate saize is correct, humidity can be used as something of a barrier, as the Cham will be more inclined to stay in a higher humidity level (higher up in the system) Drainage is a big concern, but can easily be worked around with propper planing and depending on the types of fill used, could prove usefull to the Monitor providing nice, cool, moist places to burrow. Stress is a concern, but with two or three 6 foot tall tress, and thick vegitation, the Savanah prob will never see the Cham. And considering the little guy shows no signs of stress when my two small dogs are around I don't think the slower moving Sav is really going to freak the cham out. I know eventually the Sav will get way too big for this system to work, and at that point he will get a nice HUGE enclosure of his own, but untiil he is two or three feet And please don't say I am going to kill anything, I have never lost an animal to anything but natural causes. This system would be up and running for a month before they were put in together (If they ever are) and would be well tested for everything from proper temp and humid to feeder accses and solo time for each animal seperatly to see how they will react. (like a few weeks each in there alone to make sure the envionments are suitable. I am hearing you guys though, and I apprecaite what you are all saying, but don't think I am some half witted dunce with his first little toy, I just happen to enjoy the science behind all this as much as the animals themselvs.
If you really are 'hearing' us, then you'd notice that I said the sav ripping up mesh is the least of your worries. The toughest wire mesh in the world will not hold in enough humidity for your monitor. Open air enclosures are not good for monitors. Seriously, if you want to prove to us that you aren't an idiot or half witted dunce, you'd read our advice carefully, say to yourself 'perhaps this isn't a good idea after all', wait until you can afford two separate enclosures and move on. If stacking two enclosures on top of one another is essentially what you are doing, then remove the 'essentially' and just stack two enclosures one on top of the other. One designed for a chameleon's needs, the other for a savannah monitor. There is no 'science' in trying to put animals from entirely different habitats in one enclosure, there's just compromise. If you want 'science', set the two species up in separate enclosures that suit their individual needs and watch healthy animals do what comes naturally.
no, if you were hearing me you would have read that 1.) there is no screen enclosure at all, it is a large plasti tub with a screen top. Tell me please how this is going to have a low humidity? especaily with all that drainage from above, my concern is actually too much humidity, not too little. 2.)what I can afford has nothing to do with anything, matter of fact this is going to cost way more than two rinky-dink enclosures to do correctly. 3.) I agree with your final statement in the above post and that is almost preciesly what I am trying to achieve, One large vertical space with two totaly seperate, yet symbiotic environments in that space. This thing is going to get built, and tried, but as I stated above I have never lost an animal to anything but natural causes, I don't make rash descisions, and can promise niether creature will recieve any ill effect. I am sorry I can not seem to explain all this in such a manor to convey all the asspects. I have been brain storming this for a very long time, and I expected the responses I have gotten, yet, am greatfull for the thought they have spurred. please don't think I am being argumentitive in my stance. Jason
why did you even post here if you are going to turn down the information. It sounds to me that you are thinking only about yourself. Come on man, if you really care about your lizards you would do whats best for them NOT YOU! BY the way I don't mean to be rude but, a bearded dragons lifespan is around 8-10 years not over 3.
I am not turning down any information. And so far I haven't seen anybody's Vet-school diploma, biolgy degree or any other sort of certification that would convince me someone else's opinion is more valid than mine. I don't mean any offense by any means, but, one of the main problems with internet forums is credibilty, I have none to you, and you have none to me. I value your input because it spurrs my thought. I am fully aware of the life span of a Beardie, but I formed a freindship with someone whom I was in recgular contact with for more than three years, and the whole time I knew him he had a set-up exactly what I am talking about. The only time the Cham came out was for a shower or to breed. Now, I understand the sceptisism and that is exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread, but to me, what I have SEEN is far more valid and credible than what someone that I have never met tells me. So, turning down information? man, if you knew me even in the least you would know THAT is the LAST thing I EVER do. I love information, but just because I don't compleetly agree, or have my own opinion does not mean I am rejecting the info. So, I appreciate your input. Because it makes me think..have I thought about this? and what about this? and maybe this? etc.etc.etc. And, lets all remember that all the creatures we keep had to have husbandry developed for them, and at that point in time the thoughts and ideas were unorthodox.
yes but we have Commen sense and can see the dangers. Please tell me when the animals funerals are, hopefully you wont bury them together.
I have read exactly what you have said. This was you, was it not? Having a tub at the bottom doesn't negate the fact that it is open to the air at the top, with screen from two thirds of the way up. Since you haven't kept monitors before and don't seem to have a grasp of this, let me tell you that screen tops suck. Monitors need a hot basking spot. Hot basking spots produce warm air. Warm air rises and takes the humidity with it, up through the screen and away from the enclosure. What you end up with is a dehydration chamber. If you don't believe me, do a search around all of the assorted monitor forums/fora, there are dozens, and you will see people repeating over and over again the hazards of a screen top with monitors. Dehydrated monitors live short lives. Are you serious? If it makes you any happier, I am a biologist with a PhD in zoology, but that's neither here nor there with this conversation. The qualifications that should concern you are several years keeping and breeding monitors on my side, contrasted with this being your first monitor. Yes, and before proper husbandry was developed they died by the millions. What YOU want to do now is throw away perfectly good husbandry techniques so you can experiment with the lives of a couple of animals under your care (at least one, the monitor, which will have been removed from the wild for your amusement). And to what end? Do they need to live together? No. Are you going to try to breed them? Clearly not. Do you have the funds for separate enclosures? Apparently so. No motive. You just want to mess with them. In your head, this is 'science'. It isn't. Nice. Love your work. Luckily for you, when your experiment fails and you have one or two very unhealthy lizards living shorter lives than are necessary, you can go to the nearest pet store and buy another for next to nothing. Go for it, man, you have nothing to lose! Don't pay any attention to us. What do we know?
Finnaly an intelligent and consise response. A little angry but I am used to that now, I see you point about hunididty, I guess here in Texas where The humidity is around 85% in the winter and commonly 95-100% in the Summer I have never thought about too low a humidity really being an issue, but then I have never even seen pics of anything but a screen top, and the breeder I have spoken too keeps his in a large open enclosure outside for most of the year, as did my girlfriend for 7 years before it was stolen. I had always thought the savy's I saw in Africa were living naturaly in an envrionment very similar to the one I call Home (except we have a few more mole hills and less Lions.) But, you wouldn't know that because you never asked. I appreciate your credibilty and your last post brings a lot more weight to the table, and I must say it is your educatioin, not that fact that you breed that establishes this. I have found a breeder contradicting what your telling me, and up to this point I was leaning more towards him than you. Just because one breeds does not mean one is doing it correctly. but as I stated above seeing is believing. So, it looks like it is back to the drawing board for me, too bad, this is going to mean less space for both lizards (although still more than plenty for either) and if what your telling me is that the only way to keep a Sav is in a glass cage, I am going to try and talk my girl out of it all together, I just don't believe in it. My Cham has a set-up that is almost 1000 cubic feet, if I am going to have an animal I do my best to not let it know it is captive. This whole Idea was about giving them both A LOT of space not to expiriment. Thanks for all your help and concern Jason
1. Angry? Yes. Why? I like monitors. I live in an area where monitors are native and abundant and seeing them in their natural glory in the wild has made me realise that I could never put a wild caught monitor in a cage. Where you live the pet industry relies on the trade in wild caught monitors. The savannah monitor you will get will undoubtedly be wild caught, as are all of the hundreds that other newbies post about on this and other monitor forums every week. If I had a dollar for every lame idea that each and every newbie comes up with as a 'new' way to keep their monitor that's different from the proven ways of keeping them healthy I'd never have to work again. Here's the thing. It's bad enough that the monitors are being removed from the wild for your entertainment, they should at least be kept in a manner that is going to ensure a healthy, happy, long life. Forget the shortcuts, just treat it like it should be treated. 2. No, I didn't ask if you lived in humid southern Texas because it is entirely irrelevant. Are you keeping it outside? No. Will the monitor have basking lights? Yes. Will the warm air rise and take the humid air with it? Yes. Does it matter how humid it is outside the enclosure, given that the monitor will be inside the enclosure? No. I live in the middle of the lace monitor's range and keep lace monitors indoors. It doesn't matter that the local humidity is perfect for lace monitors (they live here, after all) and that my home is neither air conditioned nor heated (so the humidity is the same as outside), because my monitors are in an enclosure with hot basking lamps. If the top weren't sealed, they'd dehydrate. Hot basking lights, which are necessary for monitors, will dry out the enclosure if the enclosure isn't sealed properly. 3. The fact that you respect my PhD more than my experience with monitors is just plain weird. For all you know, my PhD may have been on the left rear toenail of a northern European lacertid, and completely inapplicable to monitor husbandry. As it turns out, it was on crocodiles and was, in fact, completely inapplicable to monitor husbandry. 4. Nowhere in any of my posts have I suggested a glass enclosure. Aquaria make poor monitor enclosures (they necessitate a screen top). A wooden enclosure with a glass front is much better.
what i want to know is why you would even want something like this. why not just set up to nice looking, S-E-P-E-R-A-T-E enclosures for your animals.
I agree with most of what has been said. You are taking two animals from completely different areas and forcing both of them to live outside their husbandry demands. You say that you ARE building two tanks, just that the wall btwn the two is mesh? why? what is the purpose? why not just make it wood or hard plastic? Chams are not hardy, and need mesh enclosures, the monitor needs huge amounts of space and a solid enclosure. I don't see you qouting your education, so that comment was completely uncalled for and unnecessary. Have you even thought about waste? the cham will poo right on the monitor's head! the monitor will stalk any prey it smells until it gets to it! I know you are trying to be 'revolutionary' but you have to deal with some common sense. How experienced of a keeper are you? how old are your animals? I don't see how you could have kept any of these animals, chams, beardies or monitors, and come and on here and suggest that cohabitating [even in species] is to the ANIMAL'S benefit.
