New to leopard geckos and have some questions

honestly i wouldnt bother offering food the first day or 2, the only reptiles ive had eat on their first day home were 2 of my snakes. after 2 days i would always offer food but dont be suprised if no one eats for as long as a week or 2 depending on how well they deal with stress.

also i feed my guys at different times each night. it may be 6pm one night and 4am the next

i dont refridgerate my mealing because i breed them but i think that they should be ok for a week, it takes a while for them to change.

and anything can have too many vitamins. i stick with the schedule on the caresheet from this forum, ive gotten almost all my leo advice form the people who made it and i trust them

also one of the worst reptile brands is flukers so avoid their products. zoomed is pretty good, so is exoterra. i cant remember the brand of dusts i use, i just memorize what the containers look like

 

It is possible to overdose the D3, so I would not dust it every feeding. I don't think your going to run into a huge problem with it with leos being nocturnal and lacking as much of a D3 need to properly synthesize calcium and it's probably not hurting them that they are being offered it every time, but I would only go once a week. Rep-Cal ultrafine with D3 has the highest levels of D3 of any supplement I think, (it has like 10x that of reptaid? or something). Multivitamin can also be overdosed, but pure Calcium is generally safe to dust with at any time.

I would highly recommend the Rep-Cal brands of supplements. I feel as though they are the best product and have done a lot of testing, it's pretty quality stuff and they have plain calcium, with D3, and a multivitamin (herptivite). The multivitamin also uses Carotene for vitamin A rather than retinol, so you will not have a problem with vitamin A toxicity with Rep-Cal.

I also do not like refrigerating because they don't eat much which leads to lack of gutloading . And honestly, mealworms are a walk in the park to breed to where you would never need to buy them after an initial starting supply. I had a colony going for 2 years even when I did not provide any food at all for them, it was a true example of...nevermind I'm not going to go all science geek here. Long story short, mealworms + bin + bedding + occasional food for moisture = endless supply of mealworms. But you can buy them every week if you like and they should hopefully note pupate...if they do breed em =)

 

I have been trying to read more into the supplement stuff because everyone seems to say something diffrent. I just dont want to not give them enough supplements and have them get sick or not grow as big as they should or something. I have read a bunch of diffrent care sheets and they all seem to have a couple things in common. One is that young leos under 1 year of age should get more supplements and the other is that pure calcium should be left in a small dish in the enclosure. I was thinking of dusting with the calcium d3 once every 2 or 3 days with the herptivite once a week then when they are older giving them calcium d3 and the herptivite once every 2 weeks. Or should I just do it once a week like the caresheet here says ? I think im worrying to much about this.

I also came across an article that talked about how mealworms are bad to use as a staple diet because their shell is hard to digest and can cause impaction. I think this seems kind of odd you would think that the leo's stomach acid wouldnt have a problem breaking their shells down.

 

It can get very confusing, there is a lot of bad info out there and some good, and no one really knows the TRUE answer to what a reptile needs. All husbandry is based on personal experience, observation, and research on the effects of these things are on the animals in captivity. No one knows EXACTLY what the leo needs, and of how much, but we can make estimates based on what has worked for people and what has kept leos alive and happy the longest, ability to reproduce, and prevent as much medical issues as possible. This is true for all reptiles, and being very forgiving creatures, minor changes in someone's supplementation schedule probably do not effect them that much in the long run.

I like the caresheet's guidelines. Just to throw a fun fact out to you, leos have been raised in captivity for YEARS without any D3 supplementation at all, thriving, breeding, and living long lives. This is true for many nocturnal herps who can more readily process calcium for thier bodies needs and pick up traces of D3 in insects and foods they ingest rather than producing it through the skin from UVB exposure. I strongly believe that supplementing with D3 occasionally can only benefit them though, so that is why I would suggest D3 weekly, multivitamin occasionally, and plain calcium regularly.

There's no such thing as worrying too much =), it's great that your worrying and asking questions. you leo(s) are going to have a great owner that cares about them, and it's so refreshing to see that, especially compared to the majority of leos and reptiles out there who are sold to pet stores and ignorant people who do not research how to care for their animal properly; and the animal suffers =(

On mealworms...I don't really want to get into it. I think they will be fine for you as long as you provide adequate variety using superworms and some crickets occasionally. I am an advocate for variety in herp diets, and I feel it is essential to their well-being. Gutloading is also extremely important.

Nutritionally speaking, mealworms are very inferior to many other feeder insects. There is a topic in the Feeder Forum titled "Giant Mealworms" in which I go into detail with this. I don't really want to get into again because I dont want anyone to feel like I am bashing the way they keep their leos since mealworms have been used as a staple for them for many decades...and leos in captivity have been known to live 15-20+ years on diets of mealworms alone.

I don't think any leopard geckos have been recorded to have been impacted by mealworms, BUT other herps HAVE.

It's not a matter of the acidity of the stomach acid, chitin is what the exoskeleton of a mealworm is composed of and it's a carbohydrate (polysaccharide)...stomach enzymes break down proteins and have almost nothing to do with breaking this down other than making sure the worm is dead and prepared to be digested. Enzymes in the intestines carry out carbohydrate digestion

Chitin is the stuff your fingernails are made of, and because it passes from stomach into the small intestine THAT is where impaction problems occur. Leos seem to be efficient at passing this roughage, but herps like bearded dragons are not nearly as efficient in the way their stomach empties into their intestines, and they can die from mealworm impaction. It's been documented.

You won't have a problem feeding mealworms to your leo, but just know that variety will be very beneficial to him occasionally. Hope that helps =)

 

for my younger ones i use mealies as a staple and will occasionaly give them other feeders for variety, but as soon as they are big enough i start feeding them superworms. superworms have less shell and are healthier than a mealworm. plus they move around more so they get the attention of everybody.

superworms bite though so watch your fingers. i just switched one of my little guys over to supers last night and he got bit right on the face, but he quickly learned how to grab them so he wont get bitten again. leos have touch skin so he isnt hurt, just got a little pinch is all

 

ok, I will go with the care sheet on here for supplements then. I think I will still use mealworms as a staple, but I will make sure to give them some variety aswell.

How long should the enclosure take to heat up ? Last night It got down to about 85-87F on the hot side and 73F on the cold. I turned off my a/c in my room at about 7:30 when I get up. Its now 11:00 and the hot side is about 90-91F and the cool side is still at 73F.

So im trying to make a list of everything I still need to buy. Here is what I have so far let me know if I am missing anything.
I have so far one log hide, repti carpet, one digital thermometer, temp gun, UTh, dimmer and 20 gal long tank.
I still need:
Hides (3x)
Humid hides(2X what is a good size of tupperware to get for them ?)
eco earth for inside the humid hide.
Other various things for them to hide/climb on
water bowl( should I have 2 ? one for each )
food bowl
Tupperware containers for feeders
Repcal with D3
Herptivite multi vitamin
Pure calcium
I think thats about all.

 

Looks good on the list =)

You will only need 1 water bowl, and as for size of humid hide I would say anything that looks reasonably sized for an adult leo to fit into. They can get into relatively small places...I've never made one from scratch but heres that link again:
http://www.reptilerooms.com/index.php?cate...template=Simple

"First I started off buying a pack of 4 "Ziploc" tubs. They're the medium sized "3 Cup" tubs, and were about $2.50 for the pack of 4." - From that article in the link above. It doesn't provide dimensions, but apparently those sizes will be fine for that brand.

And when it comes to heating up time, I wouldn't worry about it as long as the desired temps are eventually met. It will take time for any heating element to reach the desired temperature...even the sun in nature as it rises. Temps in the morning are always colder than temps mid-day at the suns peak so even if it takes a few hours for it to completely heat up its fine.

 

Well I went out and bought some tupperware, which I thought would be a good size. But when I opened them up at home they were alot shallower than I thought. They are about 2 inches deep and 7 inches across. Will they be ok or are they too shallow ?

 

They will probably be alright, just put a shallower layer of the eco earth in there and kind of pack it in so it doesn't consume a lot of the head room. But yeah, as long as the entrance is large enough a 2" height will be plenty for a leo to get into.

 

Well we went out today and got the rest of our tank supplies. The only thing we couldnt find was pure calcium powder and eco earth. We did get the repcal calcium with D3 and the herpative multi vitamin. The people at the store and the guy we are buying the leo' off of said you can just use the calcium d3 for in the dish. Is that true ? Instead of the eco earth we got this exo terra forest moss, hopefully that will work well.

For the forest moss, it says to put the whole brick in water. Can I just take off enough for the two humid hides ? Or is it easier just to make the whole brick ? Also how do I store the extra moss im not using ? Is once a month a good idea to change the moss or should it be changed more frequently ?

I have a probem, I dont think all the hides will be able to fit in the tank! Currently we dont have the humid hides in the tank and its already pretty full. I talked to the guy and he said I dont really need two hides at each end. He said when he first put them in his tank he had 2 hides and each end and 2 humid hides but they always were in the same one and didnt use most of them so he took them out. Should I try my best to get all 6 hides in or maybe take one or two out ?

My girlfriend sort of quickly set up the tank today and she put one hide over the digital probe. It now reads 103F in the hide. Do I have to lower my temps again or should it be fine. I have the temps at about 90-93F on the hot side and 75 on the cool side.

 

You will eventually need pure calcium carbonate or citrate, you can buy it from health food stores or from online if you can't find it. It keeps a long time too so the initial cost won't be too much for how long it lasts.

Reason: Vitamin D3 is a fat soluble vitamin that can be overdosed. Leo's being nocturnal have a limited D3 and UVB requirement and they metabolize calcium efficiently enough, so more D3 than necessary could cause them to utilize more calcium than necessary as well that could pose other problems down the road.

I'm not familiar with jungle moss but I'm sure it's fine. If it's anything like compressed and dried coconut fibers like Bed-a-beats it can probably be stored after making for a looong time. I'll have to look into that product for you but now I'm kind of short on time. I'd assume if its what im imagining you can probably store it in a large ziploc forever once its been completely dried again after making.

Good thing you checked temps, I would place the humid hide in an area where it won't get quite that hot (maybe in the corner of the warm end?). Thats pretty much a sauna and they probably won't use it. I think it will also be okay if you only have one humid hide also, especially if they are 7" in diameter 2 leos could probably fit anyway. Or you could sacrifice some other hide, I don't think having 5 hides is going to be detrimental to your 2 leos =)

Once a month is probably fine for changing the humid hide substrate.

 

Ok I will go out tomorow and search for pure calcium then. On the package of the moss it says its good for humidifying hides so I would assume it would work fine. So after I make the brick and take what I want for the humid hide, I just let it dry out and put it in a ziplock bag.

I plan on putting the humid hide in the middle of the tank its usually 78-80F there. The hide that was on the hot side was just one of those normal rock looking ones that you get from the pet stores. Do you think I should try and lower the temps or will they be fine if its that hot in the hides ? Here I thought I was all done with messing with the temps.... so close!

 

Yep just let her dry completely out after making it then throw it in a ziploc and it will keep till whenever you need it again.

I think you'll be alright so long as the actual hide isn't immediately over the hottest point. It's going to be warmer in there due to the lack of ventilation, but thats the beauty of having a thermal gradient and multiple hides...if they don't want to rest up in the hot hide or they get too warm, they just have to move to a different one =)

 

I did try to move the temp down a bit. It's now at about 89-92F on the hot side and 78-79Fon the cool side. Having the hides and stuff in there seem to be raising the temps a bit but it should still be fine I think. I will try having my A/C on tonight with the UTH off to see what the temps are like.

When I'm looking for calcium at the vitamin store or health supplement store what am I looking for ? Can I just ask for pure calcium powder ? Is there any sort of ingredients I should be looking out for ?

Well we will be picking the two leo's up sunday night! Should I have some mealworms to offer them that night or will it just be a waste ? How can I tell when they have calmed down and adjusted to the new enclosure ? Once they have eaten a few meal is it safe to say they have adjusted well and they could begin being slowly accustomed to being handled ?

 

Your just looking for 100% calcium carbonate or calcium citrate.

To be honest though thinking about it, I own some calcium citrate that is in powdered form and is doesn't stick to the insects almost at all, and it's actually a task getting anything to mesh with mealies and supers.

Just to be safe and take out the guesswork, I would just order some calcium online form a reptile supply source. Even with ground shipping it will come by next Thursday or Friday at the latest and you can start using it then. A few days of using nothing or the calcium with D3 and multivitamin (if they even eat anything at all this week) will be fine until the calcium powder arrives. Here are a few sites:

http://reptilesupply.com
http://bigappleherp.com
Specifically linking through reptilesupply, here are some product options:
http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=119 (I'm a big fan of rep-cal products)
http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=139
http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=1150 (this stuff is good, and it sticks to bugs REALLY well)
http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=2217

With shipping none of these will probably run any more than $10 after the fact, and they all will last you quite a while. Plus, if you want to browse around for anything else you need or think you might want to buy down the road you could get it all now and shipping would be cheaper with one order =)

I would go ahead and offer them food, I've had new herps eat the first day and become accustomed to the place like they've been living there all their life. It just depends on the individual, but I would go ahead and have some food ready to go for em

Hope that helps =)

 

Thanks, that does help. I will go back to my local pet store and ask them again maybe if I ask for the repcal calcium they will have that. I would really rather not have to order it. You say the calcium doesnt stick to the insects. I thought the pure calcium was only in the dish and wasnt dusted on the insects.

I will pick up some mealworms early sunday then. For their bedding I was told that it was just bran. Can you get it at the grocery store ? Also what do you feed the feeders for gut loading ? Is it just fruits and vegetables ? I worked at the pet shop that I will be getting my feeders at, and they would feed them the same stuff that they used in the bearded dragon salad just not cut up so fine.

 

Leo's can easily find calcium and will readily lick it up its available to them when they need it. It will be in the dish in case they ever have a desire for it due to not receiving enough from insects. This is more of a precaution for breeding leos and gravid females who will put a lot of calcium stores into egg production, but its nice to have a little dish of it available at all times for any leos. You will still need to be dusting every feeding or every couple of feedings with the pure calcium for any age leo despite it still being in the dish.

If you can't find any calcium easily shoot me a PM. I'll have to look at what I have but I can probably send some out to you. Even smaller sized containers will last you until it goes bad, I'll check and I might have nearly a full bottle of the bone-aid by T-Rex that I would be willingly to send out as I probably will never use it...I'll just have to double check the date but I'm pretty sure calcium carbonate doesn't have a shelf life or it will keep for an absurd amount of time.

Rolled oats or bran works. It's difficult to find a good dry medium for mealworms that they can also utilize as a gutload. The problem is if it's fine or powdery they will suffocate, and I haven't come across a good gutload other than cricketfood.com's (and they no longer are in business to my knowledge) that the worms can both live and and still have a great nutritional gutload.

Dark leafy greens and veggies will work for a good gutload that adds as moisture for the worms too. You can use just about anything, but AVOID:
rhubarb and avocado due to possible toxicity, spinach due to its ability to bind calcium and prevent absorption (high oxalates), frozen veggies, and iceberg lettuce due to its lack of any kind of nutritional content. Most lettuces actually are just water (Romaine is OK)

Feed greens like collard, mustard, turnip, dandelion, endive, escarole, any squash, watercress, carrots, apple, mango, papaya, bell pepper, potato...anything will do really as long as it's not too liquidy to where the dry worm bedding gets damp and could possibly mold.

 

Thanks for the offer but I think I found a pet store near me that sells the pure calcium. I called them and asked and they said they did have it but I havent gone and looked yet.

So for the bran I want something that is fine but not too fine so they suffocate.

Im still having problems with the temps. If I use my temp gun with the screen on I get a reading of about 90-93F on the hot end. If I take a reading without the screen lid it says 97-99F. But the digital thermometer I have thats taped to the ground on the hot end says 91F. Which do I go with for measuring temps ?

Thank you for all your help and suggestions, its greatly appreciated.

 

Sorry to butt in, JEFFREH mate, where the hell do yo find all this stuff out? This is the sort of stuff I need to print off and put in my herp folder. Lol.

Regards

Mick

 

LNK, any bran should be fine as I don't think they even make it fine enough for the worms to have problems in. It's really only an issue if the bedding is like a fine powder...I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it lol.

Temps really don't like you! lol, have you put the temp gun immediately next to the probe of the digital thermometer to see if they read similar? Sometimes temp guns pick up ambient air temps just a little bit depending on the type, what brand are you using? It is strange that it would say it's hotter though! I would say try doing to temp test of certain things in the house to see if you can get accuracy ideas...like see if room temp on a surface (like a desk or something) reads something reasonable to what you would expect and see if both read the same thing. If you know your room is only about 75 degrees F range and your probe is telling you that but the tempgun is saying 80+, then you know the tempgun is probably less accurate and may not be calibrated correctly.

Thats a tricky situation having two things say completely different things, especially when both are generally excepted as accurate temperature gauges. If it comes down to where you don't know which one to go with, I would vote the digital thermometer with the probe or try touching the temps down just another couple of degrees to where you have a little more of a median of 88 ish by probe and 95 by tempgun. Thats a hard one to answer honestly, if anyone has other ideas or suggestions please chime in.

Mick, years and years of keeping, researching, and asking questions! =) I'm still learning even to this day and it absolutely blows my mind how much some people know. The best way to learn is to find knowledgeable people, pick at their brains, and dig deep to find what you really want to know about. I browse forums all the time, send emails to breeders, keepers, universities...you name it. I've been very privileged to have been exposed to some of the greatest reptile enthusiasts of our day and some of the first large scale breeders and importers of certain herps, and I'm sure that I annoyed the HELL out of every one of them with all of the questions I had =P