Paperwork For Ball Morphs and Hets

Discussion in 'Ball Pythons' started by jjnuberjosh, Aug 24, 2005.

  1. jjnuberjosh

    jjnuberjosh Embryo

    Messages:
    3
    Hello everyone. I am attempting to breed some ball pythons this year that I bought as hets for albino. However I did not get any paperwork on these snakes..If I am successful at breeding this year and they actually produce an albino or two for me like they should if they are hets, how do I go about getting paperwork for them since they are proven hets and also getting paperwork for the babies which would be 66% hets.Any help would be appreciated.Thanks
    Josh
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  3. HelicopterPilot

    HelicopterPilot New Member

    Messages:
    60
    first what do you mean by paperwork? I am sort of confused so sorry.
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  5. Axe

    Axe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,922
    HelicopterPilot: When purchasing high end het snakes, you want documentation from the person selling it to you backing up his claim that the animal is a het - possibly photos of the parents copulation, egg-laying, eggs hatching, the het with homozygous siblings.

    Imagine going out and spending 3 grand on a pair of het piebald ball pythons or 5 grand's worth of 1.0 leopard boa, and 0.3 het leopard boas, only to find out 3 or 4 years down the line that all the babies they drop are normal. You want some recourse if the animals turn out to not be what they're claimed.
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  7. HelicopterPilot

    HelicopterPilot New Member

    Messages:
    60
    I see. Don't want to get ripped off.

    So what I would do is contact the breeder that you got your Het from . The breeder should no be reluctant to send you a couple of pictures through email
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  9. Axe

    Axe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,922
    You'd also want something signed by them (regular mail) stating the animal is what they claim.
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

    Messages:
    5,483
     
  11. HelicopterPilot

    HelicopterPilot New Member

    Messages:
    60
    Also if it doesn't turn out to what it is make sure to warn everybody ,bout them to prevent futher people getting ripped off. Also if you get a signed document can't you go to court or sumtin (this is especially for the really expensive het and whatnot)
     
  12. Axe

    Axe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,922
    Yes, that's why you need the signed document, so that you have recourse if the animals turn out to not be what they're claimed.
     
  13. jjnuberjosh

    jjnuberjosh Embryo

    Messages:
    3
    So you're saying that all I have to do is take some pictures when the snakes are together and take some pictures of the eggs and the babies and then type my own document up and sign it? Josh
     
  14. HelicopterPilot

    HelicopterPilot New Member

    Messages:
    60
    if you plan to sell your own hets yes. But for your het that you have , you have to get them from the breeder you purchased it from
     
  15. Axe

    Axe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,922
    Pretty much Josh, yeah.

    Basically, it's just a personal guarantee that what you're selling is what you claim.

    Once I get the boas breeding, I'll be videoing copulation, babies dropping, etc. and putting them all on a CD-Rom to go with each snake, along with printed documentation.
     
  16. PythonStriker67

    PythonStriker67 New Member

    Messages:
    103
    Excellent idea to POST NEGATIVE FEEDBACK ON KINGSNAKE.COM about the guy who you purchased the snakes from of yours if the one's you have now do not have any albinos/pieds then that means the guy sold you normal ball pythons me personally wouldnt let up on the guy who sold the ball pythons to you as hets if the paper work still hasnt came thru & he claimed them to be hets & sold them as hets yet hasnt produced paper work yet sounds to me he is a fraud it doesnt take much to print off or copy some simple paper work proving that they are in fact het for albino/pied just my little in put...hehe good luck josh dude you seem like a good guy hope you didnt get burned bud keep us posted on the action you take bye Striker
     
  17. HelicopterPilot

    HelicopterPilot New Member

    Messages:
    60
    Before anybody should post negative feedback, just make sure it was a Het and not a possible het :D
     
  18. jjnuberjosh

    jjnuberjosh Embryo

    Messages:
    3
    Thanks everyone. I only have one more post...in one of these posts it mentioned that I should photograph the breeding and laying of eggs for the hets that I will get an hopeful albinos that I will get, but I would have to contact the breeder for the parents for paperwork...If I am successful in breeding these "hets" and they do produce albinos for me, wouldnt that prove them to be hets and therefore I could sign my own paperwork guaranteeing them to be hets?That is all and I will check back for responses...I just want to be clear on everything..Josh
     
  19. Axe

    Axe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,922
    I wouldn't go ahead and post negative feedback. Simply not providing paperwork is not a reason for a "bad guy" post.

    If your hets do produce some albinos, then I wouldn't even worry about it. At that point you don't NEED documentaion, because you've got albino offspring to prove what they are. You can then make your own documentation if you go to sell them. Basically, if they both weren't hets, you wouldn't produce any albinos. Bear in mind though, that each egg only has a 1:4 chance of hatching out albino. So, if you only drop 3 or 4 eggs (not uncommon for a first year breeding), you may not get any. Wait until the following year and try again (when her clutch size should be bigger).

    I'd still attempt to contact the person you got them from though and ask them to mail you some documentation.

    The 0.2 het albino boas I picked up at Daytona didn't come with any documentation (as often happens at shows), but when I got home, I E-Mailed the breeder I bought them from and he emailed me right back with pictures of both parents, photos of the entire litter shortly after they were born, along with a big long history of the parents' lives (where they came from, how big they are, their age, etc), and he's going to be mailing me physical documents signed by him stating what the girls are. Any reputable breeder with integrity will do that (for the record, the guy I got my 0.2 het albinos from at Daytona is Ben Cole, and I would not hesitate to do business with him again).
     
  20. PythonStriker67

    PythonStriker67 New Member

    Messages:
    103
    yes i agree if he in fact does get albinos fine & dandy dont post negative feedback but if some one sold me a trio or pair of supposedly het snakes & i didnt receive any paperwork on them or proof they was actually truely het for albino then i breed them & got nothing but regular ball pythons you can bet id post daily negative feedback on badguys forum about the person selling hets that are truely only regular ball pythons because that person deserves a bad rep & feedback about them if josh has paid what they are asking for hets now days & the guy told him they was with papers & they was het trio or what ever for albino then the guy ignores his e-mails & such or what ever he attempted to do to get the papers which im guessing wasnt sent with the snakes which was a sign something was up in its self if you ask me personally the guy is wrong all the way around for not producing paperwork with deliver of snakes & for not getting the proper paperwork to josh between time of sale & time of his first call/e-mail to the guy at why no paperwork was included in with the sale as promisses to many scams out here now we need to nip it in the butt as fast as possiable so these bad herpers are stomped out for good at selling anything online!
     
  21. Axe

    Axe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,922
    If it turns out that they are normals, then by all means post a bad guy thread. Just be 100% sure that you know what they are before you make a post like that :)

    If the animals were shipped, I agree that it's extremely odd that no paperwork was included. If bought at a show, however, I don't think it's that unusual. Many breeders don't have paperwork for each animal they take to a show, but they know what it is, and will usually send you the paperwork after the show if you contact them.

    Josh, did you contact the breeder asking him for paperwork? Did he respond?
     
  22. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

    Messages:
    6,191
    So how does it work again? If you breed a het to a normal, then you will get normals? And if you breed a het to a het, you may get some? And how are these morphs produced originally? Is it just a freak, one in a billion thing?
     
  23. Axe

    Axe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,922
    If you breed het x normal, then each offspring has a 50/50 chance of being a het or a normal - but there's NO way to know exactly what's het and what's normal because they all look the same. So, they're sold as 50% hets.

    If you breed het x het, then each offspring has a 25% chance of being homozygous (displaying the trait) a 25% chance of being completely normal, and a 50% chance of being het. The homozygous you can discount, which leaves the 75% remainder, of which 2/3rds (or 66%) statistically speaking could be het. Those are sold as 66% hets (meaning there's a 66% chance that it is het, not that it's only partially het - there is no partially het. Either they are, or they aren't - which can only be determined by breeding to known animals).

    How they occur, generally, yes is just a random freak occurance. Piebald ball pythons, for example, have been found in nature, which is where the current stock descends from. Some morphs have only appeared in captive colonies (like blizzard leopard geckos). So yup, they're just random freak occurrances. Regardless of how they originate, in the captive trade, the breeder then generally tries to determine whether it's a recessive, co-dom, or whatever.
     
  24. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

    Messages:
    6,191
    So, say if you have 5 eggs, one might display the trait, if you breed 2 hets. and you sell the others for possible het? What if they only ever produce normals? Is it possible for a het to not carry the gene?
     
  25. wideglide

    wideglide Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,350
    Then they're not hets but with possible hets that's the risk you take. That's why they're considered possible hets and are much, much cheaper than true hets.

    Not really, so to speak. It wouldn't be called a het then and instead just a normal.
     

Share This Page