I've made a few posts now on ideas about purchasing a new bearded dragon. I've been reading about them a lot over the passed week, and I really think they sound like the most interesting reptile on the pet market. Due to that I've started considering buying a pair of them for possible future breeding. However, it seems like in every post I see where breeding is mentioned it is almost discourged. Is it really that tough? I mean, I have read up on it, I'm not totally clueless. I know that you will end up with many babies, "One breeding can result in several clutches on 20+ eggs." I also know you must make room to house them all in seperate areas depending on their sizes. I know that it takes constant care to keep babies healthy, and that they eat many times a day upwards of 100 crickets at a time. After reading all of that, I'm still interested. I'm not in any hurry to breed, though. Even if I buy them as babies I'll wait until the female is 2 years old before I breed her. If she should happen to not grow passed 18 inches then I simply wont breed her at all. She will just be a loved pet, as she will always be. I am buying pets, after all, not baby machines. When I do breed dragons I will make sure the babies are not left dying in thier cages, or sold off to pet stores that will abuse them. If I cannot sell them to good homes I will give them just give them away to good homes. I'm not looking into buying your average pet store dragon, I'm looking at high quality color morphs from the best breeders I can find. I'm willing to pay well for them, so I'm sure if I can't sell the extras people will at least want them for free. Now that I've stated what I do know, tell me what I don't know. For those that do breed, do you find it rewarding? I would love to work with morphs to make them my own, and shape my own dragons. I mean, I think it would be incredible to know that poeple were fawning over dragons that were a product of your own time and hard work. It would be like a dream to me to develop my own morph. I know that this takes years. I have years to take. How high end of dragons do you neeed to have a decent start at breeding. I know not to buy related dragons. I've seen dragons sold on from the breeders which seem trust worthy from any where from $100-$800. What do you think is the best choice? Are the most expensive hold backs the way to go? Are the biggest young dragons the best? What should I be looking for in their pictures? I just basicly want to know what all around I should look for in a high quality young dragon.
" it seems like in every post I see where breeding is mentioned it is almost discourged. Is it really that tough?" --Same with me, i want to breed small amounts in the future, but i don't know if i will. The market is saturated with beardies as it is. I already have a 4 month female of excellent color, a 2 month male completely yellow, and a darker 3 month female. they should make interesting color combos, but i don't know how much i will get for their babies. I will probably end up trading in one of my females for a red. "I'm not totally clueless" --I'm certain you're not! you do your research very well! "How high end of dragons do you need to have a decent start at breeding? I know not to buy related dragons. I've seen dragons sold on from the breeders which seem trust worthy from any where from $100-$800." --I recommend Dragon-planet.com, beardeddragon.biz, sundialdragons.com, or alphadragonz.com. They all have excellent colors. Great colors are usually not seen until 6 months of age, so look at the parents if you are buying young! Reds, tangerines, sunburst, everyone has fancy colors for their dragons and make sure if they are selling you a true Sandfire (awesome patterns!) that you are getting one. I am researching back to my dragon's grandparents. i only paid 315 for all three of my dragons, so if your willing to pay that kind of money, go for it! Keep up the good work! -sara
I do not breed dragons myself, so I'll leave the majority of your questions to those who do. I just wanted to say that the reason it seems like breeding is discouraged is because there are too many people who want to do it just because they can, and they don't put a lot of thought into it. They don't realize that they can't make any money out of it for a long time, and all the hard work and care that goes into it. That's one of the main reasons why the gene pool is suffering, because people breed their animals without putting thought into the bloodlines, size, and quality of the parents, or the cost and care that goes into raising the hatchlings. That's why we see so many tiny hatchlings in pet stores that can't be more than a week old, because the breeders didn't take the time and care to raise them properly. They were up to their ears in babies and just wanted to make a quick buck. So when someone asks about breeding, many of us want to make sure they know what they are getting into, and are doing it for the right reasons. That said, Amnesia, it looks like you obviously know what you are getting into and want to do it for the right reasons. I will always encourage and support people who want to breed for the love and betterment of the species. The bearded dragon gene pool needs more caring knowledgable breeders. I wish you luck!
I own two morphs myself and one regular phade beardie. NONE of my beardies will ever be bred for a few reasons. First, one of the morphs is just not healthy enough. Secondly, even my "healthy" female is a morph and I truly believe in breeding for health, then temperment and finally color. As for my rescue I don't know enough about his background to risk breeding him. What people forget is that the majority or beardies are already related. There has not been open trade for wild stock in thirty years and even the breeders who try very hard to not breed related animals are having some troubles. I talked to a breeder on the internet about the background of my one my morph who is not the most robust little guy. He told me that the parents were not closely related because they were from differnet clutches. I took this to mean they had completely different parents, what he meant was they had the SAME parents but were born at different times. This sort of freaked me out. If you want to see what selective breeding leads to look at dogs. Hip dysplasia is rampent in the pure bred population as are many other genetic disorders.
Thats one of the big problems in the US, most the dragons that people own are related to other dragons in the US within a few generations.... and most people do not even realize it when they buy two from different locations and breed them. As little as 7 years ago, most dragons in the US came from one of 3 breeders or breeding line. This has produced many dragons that are diminshing in size, heartiness and genetics. They have problems with parasites and terrible immune systems, plus so many people have babies hatching with known genetic problems. If your going to buy dragons with the intention of breeding, how can you assure that they are not related when the people you are buying from usually do not know anything about their past beyond the parents or those parents and 90% of the time, those are related? Truthfully, there are only a small handful of breeders in the US that are closely watching the breeding lines, importing new stock and producing non inbred dragons, they are professionals and they are having a hard time making sure they are keep the lines clean........ few new people would be able to trace their lines or know for sure what they are breeding. I have seen breeder that entered this within the last 5 years and they think they are breeding non related dragons, when I know for a fact some are 1/2 silbings or 1st cousins... and they have NO IDEA they are. Few dragons are not relatived to within the 5th degree on one side for parents, which is what is considered past the safe point to avoid inbreeding problems
sara You stated you want to breed in the future and thats fine, but you mention your 3 dragons you have.... what are their background? Who where their breeders and parents? I can guarantee you that if you check, you will find that they are related within 2-3 generations. You said "they should make interesting color combos, but i don't know how much i will get for their babies." Breeder should be for the health and the heartiness of the line, especailly when you have a species that has the problems happening that this one does. There are a few breeders that are only breeding dragons over 500 grams and that they know are imported lines or non related. That should be the first factor in deciding if their are breeder quality. Its not that people want to discourage anyone new on general principal as you seem to think, its that most new people do not understand the problems that are happening or what they are doing. That's adding to the problems, then they are stuck with defective or weak babies and having to dump them at pet stores where less than 5% of them see their 4th month of life. With the color morphs they risk of being inbreed is even higher. People that care about this species future, are aware and concerned and want to stop more people adding to the problem unknowingly. There are some breeders that we have helped and added some prime breeding stock to their collection, pure imported lines that are related to none in the US and dragons that are well over 500 grams......... I sell VERY FEW to breeders and only when I know they have those same standards we are trying to produce, because they are committed to improving the genetic lines here, not just putting two dragons together to make babies and problems. Its not you or Amnesia personally... or anyone that mentions breeding, it's others wanting you to learn what the situation is and what you have before you join in making plans. Most of the reputable breeders now planned from day 1 and selected their dragons as future breeders knowing that, or had to start all over when they learned it and even then, it is hard, expensive and time consumming to get the good quality breeders and raise the babies to a proper sellable age, which should never be less than 6 weeks....3 months is even better as that is past the fragile stage. Each year we see new people come online, talk about breeding, produce babies in a year or two and then back posting in a panic with clutches in seizuring and dying or not being able to sell them or nipped toes and tails/selling them off to wholesalers for $5 each because they can not afford to feed them properly....... its heartbreaking.
I understand the point you guys have made about people getting into this unprepared. That absolutely what I want to avoid, though. I'm trying to find out everything I possibly can before I ever get any dragons. I'm reading every article on dragons that I can find, for their care, breeding, possible illness, etc. I am planning this from day one, and I'll do whatever it is that one is suppose to do in this situation. Thats what I'm asking, what exactly do I need to do early on to prepare for breeding. I'm willing to pay top prices for the best dragons out there. I assume the breeders who I keep hearing mention as reputable (Dragon's Den, Alpha Dragons, mystical dragons, dachiu, kakadu, beardeddragons.biz, and a few others) will have records on their dragons? I will take whatever steps necessary to find dragons that are non-related. If I need buy one, and wait until another clutch is hatched from some one else with different parents thats fine. I am not just in this to make a quick buck, though. I love reptiles more than anything. I would never want to damage the American line of dragons. Maybe I'm niave, but I really think that I could help. I think I understand what is needed, larger, healthier, high color dragons. I understand that only healthy non-related dragons of at least 18 inches, 500 grams, and 2 years of age should breed. I'm willing to spend the time and money on this. I have all the time in the world, and plenty of money to drop into it. Even if it costs more down the line I'll cover it. I just want to find out everything I need to do to prepare.
The biologist in me is always warring with the pet lover in me. Here is why. Basic genetics says that a limited population with a limited gene pool (like the pet industry BDs) is going to have to be carefully regulated because nature selects for different things than breeders do. Nature "picks" the healthiest individuals in a species to live longest and therefore reproduce most and pass on their healthy genes. When we breed for color we are ignoring the best interests of the species. Now if you go to the those major breeders like the ones you mention they breed for health first and foremost. BTW larger is a side effect of health not the otherway around. A dedicated hobbyist can make the best breeder I totally agree with that but not to sound like a wise ass but a crash course in genetics might help you on your way. As Cheri said with any K species (tho truthfully beardies are on the R/K border) you have to go back at least 5 generations to determine relatedness. Another thing to consider is do we even need more breeders? Given your interest in researching you would likely make a good one but there is only a limited number of people who are going to keep beardies. Even now there are so many Bearded Dragons in rescue that many get put down. Also do you have a reliable outlet for any babies youd have? Remember even one breeding could theoretically anyway result in 3 clutches of 30 babies each. Thats quite a few homes.
Well, I live in an area where there really aren't any breeders of reptiles in general to my knowledge. I think that a lot of them would sell without even needing to be shipped from the initial clutch. It seems that if there is a problem with finding non-related dragons in the US is that diffcult more breeders would be a good thing. Of course the new breeders will probably have stock bought from current breeders, but several generations in they will be able to be reintroduced, no? What does it take to get a dragon imported anyway? I imagine that the import laws are strict, but how do some people get them? I don't really understand how that works.
I do think a course in genetic would help you understand why even several generations of inbred dragons is not going to undo the fact they share too close like genetic. Most people can not import fresh lines from the only area they come from, Australia. No imports are allowed from Australia at this time and have not been for a few decades. Very limited ones with special permission from the government and a lot of red tape to get them provide hardly any available to the public in any country and it does not appear that is going to change anytime soon. Some breeders bring them in from England, Germany, Netherlands or Belguim, but US breeders export to all those countries also and so again, unless you know the lines several generations back, you may be getting in ones already related to the lines here. Besides the fact, the orignal stock in the US came from mostly Germany and England to begin with and a lot of those came from Netherlands and Belgium
Ah, I see, so it would be just as big a risk to bring a dragon in from Europe as it would here? I see, the problem is that there aren't enough coming out of Australia to anywhere, not just th US. So basicly, how difficult is is to find dragons that are non-related? I assume they are possible to find still?
Apart from all the technical genetics and proper breeding and care and all the $$ it will take to do it properly. It is not really like you "go into the bussiness" there are so many breeders who (with no insults inteneded) are better than you. And apart from all of this on a whole the vast majority of would be owners will probably be very ignorant and buy from a pet store where sadly u probably cant compete w/ $30 a dragon Just facts, if i offended anyone, srry
The breeders who are well known now had to start out from nothing at one time to. No one was born knowing how to breed bearded dragon, everyone had to learn it at some point or another. Though the people who are breeding now are better than people thinking of starting to breed right now, there is no reason why those people couldn't be just as good at it in 5 years, or so. Plus, the people who breed now will not always be around. People retire, or get out of the business other ways. If no one started breeding dragons besides the ones who are breeding them now then eventually the dragon population in captivity would just die out. I would think that people would encourage new responsible breeders.
Possible, but rare. When we were able to get 15 that we know absolutely are not related to any dragons currently in the US or in Europe at the time, we sent 12 of those to other breeders that were working like we were to keep genetic lines tracked and improve them in the US. Another one has since been sent to a newer breeder that I like the way she is doing things (yes, new people do come in and do things right and we know that can happens, but that is not the norm) We have probably spent over $20,000 in the past 5 years alone just trying to strenghen the genetic lines and get the diversity in the dragons that is needed to help this species here, along with working with several other breeders, most who do not sell their offsping online. To do it properly you will lose money at least the first two years. Most people are not prepared for that type of loss to do it right and end up taking short cuts that created more problems. If you are serious in doing it right, start out slowly and learn all you can and be VERY selective in who you buy from and what dragons you add to your colony... one of the first things to learn is when someone answers and recommends another breeder, please, please understand sometimes they have only got a dragon in the last month themselves and have no idea who is a good breeder or not. I have seen people recommend a breeder on some threads that would be the last one I would buy a dragon from or add into my existing colony, would very good reasons.......... check out how much experience the person responding to you have, some have been around a long time and know, many are new and do not have a clue if they are or not. That reminds me, here is an old thread I dug up that was about exactly this kind of thing... someone recommending a breeder when they really did not know, and the nightmare they had later on.. which most of us were already aware of.... so please check out someones history, http://www.reptilerooms.com/index.php?name...hlight=fire+ice
Hey Cheri I followed that link to the link about fire&ice in that OTHER forum. It gave me chills (besides taking over an hour to read). Its shocking how some people make you realize why it is called the pet INDUSTRY. Sort of makes me change my mind about Amnesia here. You seem to have you heart in the right place, Amnesia. Take some gentics courses, keep doing your research and I will probably be buying beardies from you in a few years. Just dont say you have 15 yrs of experience like the fire and ice lady. GOOD LUCK!!!
I made a really long post, but my computer ate it. This one may be a bit more condensed. [Edit: Maybe not, I babble too much.] I read that entire post, and all of those that branched off of it, and that is just sad. What is the most sad is that those blatant lies she spread aren't some how illegal, because what she is doing is nothing short of robbery. False representation at the least. I know now that I will not buy from Fire and Ice, or Sunshine Dragons, though. I would have still bought from Sunshine dragons, because I read where Cheri said the complications with the dragon they had in question were not uncommon, but they just seemed way too unproffesional. I worry about anyone who has Fire and Ice stock in their lineage now too. I don't know, though, why breeders would be so reluctant to refund a buyer when the buyer is out SO MUCH more money then they are. There is no way I can see that one hatchling would cost $560+ to raise. That includes shipping too, but being as most people have $45-50 estimate in shipping, and F&I was charging $60-75 according to most posts I've seen they were probably actually making a profit off that too. I could be wrong about that, though. The way I see it, the breeder is probably out no more than $25 on an individual hatchling, and the buyer is out $500+, so why not just give them the benefit of the doubt. If nothing else it will help the breeder anyway, because people will see they are willing to work with their customers. F&I has most definitly lost well over $560 in sales over this. I think that even those people who are initially happy with their F&I dragons may be dissapointed later due to the fact that almost everyone who has had theirs for a decent length of time said they were under sized. I remember one specific post from an individual who had both a F&I and a Kakadu dragon saying their F&I dragon grew much slower than their Kakadu. Does anyone know what F&I is doing wrong? My initial guess is that they have heavy inbreeding, being as they don't reveal lineage, but honestly I'm not qualified to make estimates like that. One thing that struck me as very important in the thread that was linked was the post with information Cheri gave on breeder's care of hatchlings effecting them long term. This is one of the important little tid bits that furture breeders never usually get in the shortened "breeding caresheets" that are easy to find. I may have misunderstood the part about the cages, but I took it as saying that its best to keep them in clear cages. Also that its good the feed them in reptariums, and house them in glass cages, because they'll probably be housed in one of those at their new home? I will keep mine inside of my home, where people will be near them often, not in a secluded shop/garage/etc. so they'll see a lot of people. How do you prepare them for shipping, though? Anyway, I'm not looking to buy a dozen dragons and start breeding tomorrow. I know that I need to learn more about dragons still. I want to buy a single pair and possibly breed them once they're 2 years of age IF they meet the standard requirements for a good, breeder quality, dragon. If they do not then I will not even consider breeding them. I will just keep them as what I bought them for, a very loved pet. I'm not buying a money machine, I'm buying a pet. I think everyone who buys animals should see it this way. Loved pet first, possible breeding stock second. Anyone who looks at animals as impersonal sources of income is worthless to the reptile community no matter if they've been breeding for 10 years, or 10 minutes, in my opinion. Animals are living things, not machines, and they should be treated accordingly. A little about me personally; I do not claim to have any experience with dragons. I have never owned one, and I do not claim to be anything more than a novice on the subject. I would never claim to have "15 years" experience with dragons, and I wouldn't be able to pull that off with any believability for long anyway. I would have had to have produced a clutch at 5 years of age to be able to hold up to that. I don't plan on representing myself as anything other than what I am. A person who loves reptiles and has just come into the world of bearded dragons wanting to find out everything they possibly can. I have loved reptiles for a while, but in the passed I have mostly owned turtles and tortoises. I got my first turtle, a belize slider, for my birthday at 15. I had asked for a snake, but my parents didn't like the idea. lol I loved it anyway, and I was given 4 others within the next couple months. One of them died within a few weeks of its arrival without showing signs of illness. My vet could not find a real explanation for it, and said that it was most likely either failure to thrive, or some internal defect, being as it was a just a hatchling. The others I had for the passed 5 years, but sadly they are no longer with me. They passed a couple months ago, along with a wonderful pair of Russian Tortoise that I had owned for a year and a half, and an adorable little fence lizard that I had had for only around 3 months. They did not pass due to my care of them, though, they all died in a fire that destroyed my home last month. No humans were harmed, but that doesn't mean I don't feel like I haven't lost a large portion of my family. The only survivor of my little darlings was an amazing three toed box turtle, whom I now cherish more than anything. I am now planning on getting a beardie because I don't have the heart to own another turtle after losing my babies. I will be here asking lots more questions in preparation of getting my beardies, though, so hopefully I wont bug you all to death. I wont just dissapear after getting them, either, I'll be around showing pictures and asking tons more questions. You'll all see them grow up, and you'll all endure my constant questions and over worrying in the begining, no doubt. I remember how much a bugged the poor people at turtletimes.com when I first got my babies. I imagine it'll be about the same this time. I'll bug you all even more once my first clutch is laid. Hopefully you'll all bear with my "over protective parent" attitude. lol
I'm so sorry to read about your recent tragedy. I would completely fall apart if I lost my pets in such a way. You are very strong. Well I for one welcome you with open arms and open mind. You are obviously a caring person who wants nothing more than to do this right if you do it at all. You've put more thought into it already than most people who are already incubating their eggs. Good for you. Anyways, ask away all the questions you need! I don't breed dragons, so that is not my area of expertise (I'm more studied in the aspects of basic husbandry), but we have a few great breeders here who I know will be more than happy to help you along.
It was very hard. One of my sliders, and one of my Russians made it through the fire alive. My slider was badly burned and only made it a day. My poor little Russian came out with about a fourth inch of ash on her shell. She made it about a week, and I thought she was alright, but she passed anyway. I rushed them to the vet as soon as the firemen brought them out, and the vet slipped me in as soon as he could. In the end he could only save the box turtle, because it was barely exposed to the ash, and none of the fire. I miss them a lot. I didn't really know what I was getting into when I got the sliders. They were presents, and I was young, so I hadn't planned for the space they would need. I looked into it as soon as I got them, though, and they always had the large tanks, and strong filters, etc, that they needed. It was a rush getting everything right at first, but I had very few problems with them. Only one of them was slightly sickly, because of problems early in her life. She came to me with a terrible eye infection, and I hadn't even expected her to live. She did, though, after a lot of extra love and daily treatments, but she had permanent eye damage. She was half the size of the others at 1 year old, and she could never see very well, but she was just as big as the others were when she passed. She was the one who made it through the fire alive, also. Anyway, this forum is for beardie stories, not turtles, so I'll move on. I think that I'll be asking more questions about general care for a while anyway, because it'll be a long time before breeding is an issue. I'll most likely be buying them as babies, because older dragons seem to be really hard to find. I can only find 3, or 4, of them anywhere right now. Babies seem to be really easy to find, though, and I think I'll be ok with them even though I know they're more demanding. I have all day and night to take care of them, so they'll get constant attention. I still have a while to wait before I can order the reguardless. I'm in a small condo right now, because I'm waiting for the house to be rebuilt, so it'll be around the end of the month when I can move back in. Thats when I'll order the cages and such, and after that the dragons. Until then I'm just trying to figure out exactly what I want to get for their cage/lights/furniture. I want to get THE BEST of everything that I can possibly get for them. I've already decided that I want to use the "duck brand shelf liner" for them their entire life, as that seems safest. Everything else is still up in the air, though as far as brands and all go.
Do you mind me asking what the name of the place you got the male that didn't do well from? I'm not really wanting to start a business. I wouldn't be interested in more than 6 dragons either, but I would just want 3 females, and 3 males. I don't really want more clutches per year than that. I really just want them around because its something that I know I would enjoy. I don't honestly even care if I end up losing money on it.
