Questions about breeding.

Discussion in 'Bearded Dragons' started by Amnesia, Jul 4, 2005.

  1. Spot

    Spot ReptileBoards Addict

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    Actually, inbreeding is very rare in the wild. I can't say specifically about beardies, but there are behavior and social characteristics endemic to various species which ensures that inbreeding is kept to a minimum. I've actually done a Masters Thesis on this subject and studied the mating/genetic patterns of everything from bees to elephants. So if left without interference in the wild, most animals do not breed with relatives. That along with natural selection keeps the animals in the wild as fit as they can be.

    The only exception to this I can think of on top of my head is the cheetah. At one point, cheetah population became so low that practically every living cheetah are closely related. Did you know that if you take a skin from one cheetah and graft it onto another cheetah which seemingly is unrelated, the tissue isn't rejected? That's how genetically similar they all are. Pretty scary as all it takes is one bad epidemic of some sort and it can decimate the whole population.
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    Not all breeder are inbreeding nor unaware of it. I know several that have their generations info down far enough back that if the animals have an mutual relations it is not a problem or are breeding to new imports. I know Dragons Den has bred in alot of imports to his lines.

    I also know that even some of the high end expensive morphs are not being inbred... Like AlphaDragonZ is only breeding his transleucents to non related hypo pastels to make hets, I think that Paul who was breeding for Sandfie Ranch (I do not think he is there anymore) also is doing the same. But then there are some that are breeding trans to trans that are siblings if they bought two, never understanding that in the big picture, they are smart waiting for the profits by producing hets and breeding those to other lines to produce more.

    Ever breeder I know that have been breeding dragons for more than several years, all say the same thing, they are seeing the size of them diminish so much and the heartiness. This is not a new statement by anyone and we all know it is due to inbreeding. They are hard pressed to find new lines themselves and many are not breeding any dragons under 500-550 grams, some want them at 600 to breed
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. Demasoni.com

    Demasoni.com New Member

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  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. jenkznza

    jenkznza Embryo

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    Kevin a Dragons Den has done a great job with his Beardeds. The 1.2 I mention are from him and I'm extremely impressed with them. I didn't mean to infer that all breeders were insensitive to inbreeding, but as John said inbreeding to isolate a trait then outcrossing is the quickest way to capitalize on a specific trait. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that major breeders don't do this when a highly desireable trait pops up.
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. Demasoni.com

    Demasoni.com New Member

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  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    It does not work with bearded dragons who started from a mirco gene pool to begin with and show some genetic defects in the first generations of inbreeding, especially diminished size and surpressed immune systems, second generations or daughter back breed to father, sone to mother show significate problems such as organs outside the bodies, severe kinks in tails, curved spines and missin limbs.

    Some many of the initial trans that were breed were inbred and even the person breeding them noted how weak they were genetically and few thrived or survived.
     
  12. Demasoni.com

    Demasoni.com New Member

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  13. AlphaDragon

    AlphaDragon New Member

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    Well Cheri S and Axe imported some dragons unrelated to any other dragons in the U.S. about two years ago. I just posted on this subject http://www.reptilerooms.com/forumtopic-17406.html . As far as the Hypopastel and other genetic morphs coming from the same original animal that is not true at all. I personally know of at least four different Hypopastel lines and can trace them back in some cases about 5-8 generations. Also there are at least two to three Translucent lines here in the U.S. and maybe 4 in North America. Yes I have been trying to gather as much info as possible on these mutations and put alot of effort into researching their bloodlines. I aknowledge that my info is only as good as the source but I am trying to get second and third opinions on bloodline history.

    Cheri S talked about the 5 generation rule and I think for a newbie starting out it is very admirable to find dragons that are at the very least 4-5 generations apart and from there you can start diversifying your gene pool and even furthering the seperation of bloodlines.

    As far as traits popping up and the issue of breeders inbreeding to set this trait is true, but as you said Kevin at Dragons Den did it right, but a large percentage of people do it wrong. Kevin bred his first generation of marketed leucistics hets together and then began his outcrossing of his leucistics to everything in sight. That is why you now see colored hypopastels that are just a product of his Marketed Leucistics (non colored Hypopastels) crossed to colored lines. Anyways time to watch a movie.
    Talk to you guys later,
    Randy
     
  14. Demasoni.com

    Demasoni.com New Member

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  15. AlphaDragon

    AlphaDragon New Member

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    LOL!! that post was absolutely hilarious!!
    Thanks,
    John
     
  16. liza714

    liza714 Member

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    John-

    Just wanted to point out you are assuming that Hypopastel is a single allele trait, which isnt likely as most color traits in reptiles are polygenic. Second, I was wondering if Hypo is a recessive or dominant? Also, if you have a limited population, "unrelated" animals occuring with the same mutation is much more common. Unfortunatly, it just underscores the fact that they arent really "unrelated". As for the "green" hair, look at albinism in humans. Its a true point mutation (a frame shift isn't it?) which is found in every single ethnic group, so while it maybe uncommon its not unheard of.
     
  17. AlphaDragon

    AlphaDragon New Member

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    I wasn't going to post on this and don't want to get into a big to do. That being said several Hypomelanistic genes have a high frequency in many different species of Reptiles. If you look at different reptile populations than you would know that Boa constrictor constrictor and Python regius are prime examples of this. I remember when the first albino rosy boa was found and then shortly after that people really started looking for them and several more where found. This is an example how prevalent point mutations are in reptiles because of frameshift, environmental factors or just random coding errors.

    Relatedness in Bearded Dragons is somewhat of an ambiguous and relative term. When I speak of relatedness in the U.S. I am referring at least 5 generations apart. You would be very hard pressed to find animals that are that unrelated in the states. Incidently that is the biologic safe point for breeding related stock. To say blindly that all dragons in the U.S. are related and therefore you are inbreeding anyways is just not the way to go about it. I feel it is a copout, and to knock people who have put a lot of effort into diversyfing there bloodlines is of no benefit.

    As far as "Hypopastel" being a single allele well it most likely is just by the fact that it is recessive and breeds true. If it was polygenic it would be quite unlikely that the loci would segregate together 99% of the time. It is not impossible that it is polygenic but it is highly unlikely. There are other forms of Hypomelanism that may be Codom or Dom but it is a little harder to characterize and identify this/these anomolies.

    The Albino trait is a great example of the same mutation being found in many different unrelated human populations. Another thing is that there are Hypomelanistic genes that have come out of Mainland Europe and England over 7 years ago. There are hypomelanistic animals that came out of Sandfire Ranches Red/Gold line that originated in the Red Deserts of Austrailia. As a said before there also a few lines in the U.S. that are at least 5 but more likley 8 generations apart. I really good person to talk to about this would be Rob Dachiu he is one of the guys that I converse with about this issue.

    Just remember that some genes have a higher frequency then others and yes it is true when closely reated animals are bred that the probability of that gene expressing itself is much more likley.
    Thanks,
    Randy
     
  18. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    Augh, I am trying to figure out if I was insulted there...
    I can assure you, it was NOT done for money, nor at the animals expense..... if that was the case I would have sold them all to a breeder that found out about them within a few days after they arrive and was waving a checkbook in the air wanting to buy all of them.

    We did not profit at all from these babies, but being able to have one ourselves. That was not why we went through all the time, hassle, expense and worry to get them here. I did not even tell anyone that we had them coming until the night they arrived in Miami. I really do not owe this explanation to anyone, but since I am reading the above as a comment that we did something wrong, I will tell you. We divided the cost to get them here and their care till they were sold among 12 of the dragons. So no one could exploite the situation, ome each of the babies were offered to breeder we felt had good husbandry skills and cared about revitalizing the dimishing size of bearded dragons and keeping them as genetic diverse as possible.

    Also, your wrong in that it has to be something illegal to get them, that is not true. There are several routes to acquire genetic pure lines that are unrelated to others here or in Europe, not easy, but it can be done. it may take a few years, but it can be done. These babies were not wild caught, we never said they were, but they are from native Australia lines. These babies were brought into the US legally as where their parents brought into Germany legally.

    They are not German Giants, personally I think they are stronger, but their growth rate, non aggression. looks and heartiness, tell you they are not normal domestic US dragons either.
     
  19. Demasoni.com

    Demasoni.com New Member

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  20. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    Your wrong there, there are legit ways to bring in pure genetic stock now. As I said, it is not easy and takes many months.

    Bedsides, your statement of supporting that situation (which I do not) does not work either, considering most the dragons in captivity today came from illegally smuggled stock into Indonesia and then to Europe in the 1980's-1990's. According to your prior post, it was okay in your opinion then and not now?

    Some also came and still do come from the surrounding islands or countries near Australia that is it NOT illegal to export from.

    Breeder do have options besidestoo close inbreeding, its their choice, but most just plow ahead and many do it with full knowledge they are related. I think in the future there will be a wide range in value and demand between the healthy stock that is rare now, and existed in the early 90's in abundance and the more common now badly inbreed dragons lines that have ongoing parasite and health problems

    Enjoy school, an education is a valuable thing.... makes you learn and also teaches you how to think better
     
  21. wlowell05

    wlowell05 Member

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    "the problem is that there aren't enough coming out of Australia to anywhere" this sounds as though 'lets bring some more from australia and keep them in small tanks versus their wide habitat just so i can breed them' doesnt sound right... sorry but with all the other great things u said this shocked me a lil. i think u should wait a while to breed maybe not think about it until u acutally get a beardy. maybe leave it to the professionals. im sorry if i sound harsh or whatnot but geeze they genepool is small enough maybe u should just keep them as pets. they may not be what u expected once u get them. i can tell u i researched beardies for 4 years off an on, and once i finally got one, she wasnt what i had expected at all! although i love both my beardies, they are alot of trouble. maybe i'm the only one who feels this but i dunno. sorry if i sounded rude or harsh or anything like that.do u kno the pedigree, so to speak, or ur beardies? maybe u should find that out and it may be easier to find a mate by comparing his/her background. the further they are apart in the genepool the healthier ur offspring will be. u should breed for health not wanting to be known for a new morph. . .
     
  22. kavinos

    kavinos Member

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    Equally, out of everything Ive read. I wouldn't discourage breeding so long as you know what your doing. My females are 600g+ each, a nice size.

    Im not breeding for profit, im also not crossing gene lines, there from different areas of the country so it would be veyr very unlikely.

    Why am I doing it? Because I have a love for animals and it excites me to see new life being bought into the world.
     
  23. Demasoni.com

    Demasoni.com New Member

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  24. kephy

    kephy Moderator

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    Ugh. Don't throw stones if you don't want to have them hurled back at you.

    This got ugly quick. I'd lock this thread, if Cheri weren't a part of it. I guess that's her place now. Too bad, it was very informative. I was even linking people on other forums to it, to learn about breeding. :?
     
  25. AlphaDragon

    AlphaDragon New Member

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    Yes Kephy it is very sad. I have personally seen this person kill several good threads and I would really prefer that he didn't participate if this is how it is going to play out everytime.
    -Randy
     

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