Silkworms, possible link to a problem in Beardies?

Discussion in 'Bearded Dragons' started by CheriS, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    Pam,

    I also see on some textbook manuals for sericulture that the infected eggs are disinfected and worms are often disinfected between each instar and sometimes treated with antibiotics, but us who use them as feeders for our animals, do not have that as a safe options and we should not be feeding ill silks or ones that were possibly treated to our animals. We do not know if the suppliers of eggs to us might not be treating them or disinfecting them, but that is even more risky for our animals.

    It places owner's in a bad postiion, as MANY suppliers have admitted to the ongoing problem of not only this virus/disease (I just found out the disease is called grasserie, and the virus called borrelina) but also flacherie. Even some staff from some of the larger suppliers are upset at the fact diseased silks were sold by some who knew it.

    I have been told by entomologist, that the only way to have clear worms is to destory all the infected ones, sterilize everything with alcohol and start over with new eggs, but it seems that several suppliers have tried that and still have problems and can not get the worms to large size, turning into moths or reproducing. They claim they are destorying everything, but think the eggs that they are starting again with are still the problem.

    I am very concerned that some suppliers of silks have continued to sell them off to the public, at the same time the wholesalers they are selling eggs and worms too are saying that they are still getting infected ones from the same place. Some of the suppliers say that they were sold infected silkworms/eggs/chow by a supplier who did not warn them, even though he knew and they have ran into the problems again after sterilizing everything so have been unable to get silks to adulthood. So someone is not being honest there or they are reinfecting themselves unknowingly. I know that this has put some of them out of business it has gone on so long, for month...

    Either way, it means there still are not very many healthy worms out there for people to feed to their dragons. The vets we have talked to locally, at the University of Florida and the USDA APHIS, feel that with other possible toxins created in ill silks and bacteria, that they should not be fed to other animals and could be causing some problems in ones that have eating sick ones over long periods of times or just prior to them dying with the disease. I know that reptile can not get the virus, but eating silks infected with them and other actions in their bodies, might be posing a problem to them.

    Do you have any advice on how people can be sure they are not feeding infected or sick worms to their animals? I thought waiting a generation and making sure they cocoon, become moths, mate and lay eggs normally would be a safe way to know, do you know of another way?
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. Spot

    Spot ReptileBoards Addict

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    Well, it sure sounds like this issue is a whole lot bigger than I was led to believe! It makes me wonder when folks like Mulberry tells me that the virus has been eradicated but then I see that the large silkworms are constantly 'sold out' and not available. It's great that people like wormspit and SilkwormWholesale stepped up and talk about it openly.

    I mean, we take so many other precautions regarding caring for our reptiles, it really doesn't make sense to mess around with this one, especially when there seems to be so many unkowns in it's effect on reptiles.
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. PamsChams

    PamsChams Embryo

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    Cheri, I rasie silkworms for my 30 + adult chameleons they sell to the public. I have never rasied for silk. My personal opinion is that the new eggs that have came into the states is not infected and im not sure that any eggs ever were. There are so many ways worms can get infected. All one has to do is touch a worm with dirty hands or feed it food that is cooked wrong and their you go, sick worms. I do know people growing them and rasied them to cocoon. The food I sell comes to the costomer most of the time in the same packing as from the factory, I do not sell pre made food. Once the food is cooked it can get infected by many diffrent things just like any other food that is cooked.
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. PamsChams

    PamsChams Embryo

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    I for one will most definitely feed large silkworms to my chameleons and have been buying them from some of my customers and some companys. Nothing has been better for my chams then a nice large silkworm. I say this not as a business owner but a chameleon breeder. The chameleons just do so well on them. I will be starting to grow worms in the next few weeks as soon as I am fully done with the new raising rooms and have more time. Thanks, Pam Reid
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    General info for everyone, as some have emailed me where the info is coming from or being told there is not a problem.

    My information on this being the grasserie disease/virus related and flacherie bacteria come from suppliers, some of them have posted the information on other sites or on their own sites about it and they also seems to be having a hard time getting eggs that are a good quality they say as they have had to resort to very old eggs becasue more recent ones still had problems with dieoffs, Some emails from ones(fairly large ones) that went out of buisness over this

    Some comments from Silkiestogo's website

    Silkworm farms has basically closed down, but he promises to be getting out refunds to people next week
    http://www.silkwormfarm.com/ I know that some people had orders with him and I hope that they do follow through with the refunds. Someone who used to be associated with them emailed us that he had constant problems trying to restart, they eggs/worms where still infected. I am going to email them the information about re-infecting healthy eggs that Pam supplied above as that might be their problem.

    And another called the Worm Room who emailed me privately , and then posted it publically so I can reproduce it here too. I do commend this person for their business ethics and when they let us know that it is safe again to use these are feeders, I will trust their word

    I hope this does resolve soon also for the businesses and our pet. Again, I want to state that we do not know for certain that there is any illness in dragons related to the silkworms, it is advised to be cautious with silkworms right now
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. PamsChams

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    I would just like to reiterate something that ever one needs to keep in mind. When eggs are purchased and they get the virus the buyer can be the one infecting the eggs. Some viruses can stay in homes for years....So if you have had it already whats to say you are not spreading it around to any new eggs you buy. The country I get my eggs from sells to not only the US but several other countries and they SAY? that they are not haveing any problems. So it could be the the buyers are infecting the eggs them self. I was going to wright this on my web page but most of my customers I call or they call me so we talk about it. So it is a little harsh to say the business that sells eggs are selling BAD eggs. the eggs can be GREAT and peoples homes can be infecting them. Please understand I am not saying this because I sell eggs but because I have seen people get the same batch of eggs and grow them great and other fail. if egs are bad it would be all or none? right
     
  12. everylastbyte

    everylastbyte Embryo

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    There is an article about a study done on the transmission of the disease from infected moths. In the study the silkworms were infected during the fifth instar. After the moths emerged, mated, and layed eggs, the new hatchlings were studied.

    The eggs from infected male moths and uninfected females produced worms that did not show signs of disease until the 4th and 5th instar.

    The eggs from infected females and uninfected males produced worms that showed signs of disease much earlier in their development.

    Eggs from two infected parents had few hatchings.

    Here is the link to the pdf. www.cdfd.org.in/jnagpdf/jn8.pdf

    The silkworms in the study were infected on purpose with different amounts of virus....what I don't know (and I'm dying to know) is if "naturally" infected silkworms could carry small amounts of disease and still cacoon, mate, and lay.

    If that can happen, then I suppose you could have some eggs that were worse off than others.
     
  13. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    I hate when I type out a whole post then lose it!!!

    Anyway,

    Pam, I think that when people said egg suppliers, they do not mean the importers, but the many hands that the eggs may go through until they reach the person that hatches and raises them. Sometimes that is several locations and any one of those can be infecting healthy eggs again. I know that several people have bought them from the same locations and all had the virus show up again.

    My understanding is that there is a quality control on the eggs in China at least, I am not sure about Japan, still researching. So most likely the eggs are getting infected now somewhere along the way in the US, from what you say it probably is at a middleman level somewhere.

    One of my biggest concerns is not just the virus that affected them, but the bacterias that also are affecting some now. People are reporting not only grasserie, but the hatchlings not eating, worms acting crazy, to the flacherie bacteria and the virus both found in them. I had assumed that the bacteria was opportunistic, but it seems that that bacteria can also occur in shipping conditions of temp changes and moisture in otherwise healthy silks
     
  14. sk888smooth

    sk888smooth Member

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  15. Spot

    Spot ReptileBoards Addict

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    Yes, I saw that too...just makes you wonder why they have to clean house and start from scratch when what they claim is true about being virus free.
    Everything I've read does say that the virus is specific to silkies and will not infect other animals, but it's all the other stuff, like the bacteria issue that they talk about that makes me worry. Granted, you have to take precautions when handling even healthy silkies, but I think if you've got a weakened stock of worms, they wld be more vulnerable to other contaminations like bacteria and such. There wld be biochemical changes in the silkies when they're sick too...

    whatever the case, I sure hope this whole thing gets eradicated very soon!
     
  16. Janice

    Janice ReptileBoards Addict

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    If the worms are getting big and fat, does that mean they are NOT infected???
     
  17. AlphaDragon

    AlphaDragon New Member

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    Greater than 95% percent of viruses are species specific. Going from a Silkworm to a reptile biologically is a huge jump and is very unlikely. It is possible that the virus could produce a toxin that affects BDs but that remains to be seen but in my opinion is very unlikely. If the Silkies were to cause BDs problems I would guess that it was the food they are consuming. If the food is not completely sterile before being packed up and shipped the silkies could be feasting on Mycotoxins(Fungal toxin) which if fed consistenly over time could build up in a BD and cause problems. I know that Mulberry farms does an excellent job with the sterilization of there food. I have seen there process personally and it is definately aseptic. I have fed silkies as about 30% of my animal's diets last year and have had zero problems. Just my 2 cents

    -Randy
     
  18. chamsnbeardie

    chamsnbeardie New Member

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    I certainly hope that the folks at Mulberry Farms are not referring to this thread when they speak of:

    and:
    I think there's a huge difference between a rumor and an open, honest discussion of a potential problem. I, for one, am grateful to CheriS for starting this discussion, and for the input from each and every person who has posted!
     
  19. sk888smooth

    sk888smooth Member

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    What we really need are either of two components to resolve this issue.

    1. Proof that the virus has a negative impact on BDs (and the BDs wern't sick to begin with or caught some other type of bug/virus).

    2. Proof that the silkworm providers have erraticated the virus from what they sell.

    In my opinion, there is no way to test option one especially since nobody is feeding their BD's virused silkies. So that only leaves option two! Now, any supplier that can prove to us that they have eraticated the problem, they will probably have some nice business *hint hint*.
    And according to the research on the virus, the only way to prove they have eraticated the problem is that they can supply large/jumbo silkies with no die-offs.


    Am I wrong? Am I missing something? I'd really like this issue to be cleared up ASAP so we can all go back to feeding our dragons big fat silkies haha!

    Kory
     
  20. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    Kory

    I have said this several times on more than one site and I know you are seeing those too.....Maybe your are getting lost as this same thread is going on in at least 5 locatuions that I know of and I am losing track of what is said in some of them!!!!

    Anyway, its not the grasserie VIRUS we are concerned about infecting the dragons directly or other animals .... it's what affect known sick silkworms are having on them.... if bacteria and toxins in the silks because they are ill and dying is affecting the animals that eat them? We know the dragons are showing up with bacterias that are rarely found in them, there are vets involved with a lot of the sick ones and they are finding bacterias that are not common, but are often related to food poisoning and other spoiled foods.

    Just to clarify, I do not have a personal issue with Mulberry Farms, we have recommended them many times. I do not have anything against silkworms at all, I think they are a great feeder insect and also have recommended them many times and will use them when I know they are healthy again

    I do know that other feeding insects that have gram negative and positive bacteria, toxins and fungi can be deadly to the animals that eat them. Many time those bacteria are secondary infections to a virus and the bacteria do create toxins and enzymes. Those toxins can affect enzymes and hormones in other animals that ingest them. We have been told by many suppliers and some employees of large suppliers that they have several bacteria problems with the silks, that was my question and concern.

    How do I know bacteria and toxin in feeders can cause illness, including death in animals eating them over a period of time. How do I know many of the same sickness we are seeing in dragons now have happened to lizards species that ingest bacteria loaded insect feeders?

    From a letter from Dr. Frederick A. Frye, the same person Mulberry Farm quotes on their site talking about the silkworm virus not being pathogenic for vertebrates.... that we agree with, and we never questioned or said that they could GET the virus, its what those virus may be doing in the silks and then affecting animals that ingest them. from reading it seems that alot of the bacteria that silks can get accompany virus outbreaks

    Dr Frye was the consulting vet for a large colony of lizards that were getting sick and many dying and it was unknown at the time why. Their insect feeders were tested and found to have several bacteria and a fungi which he felt is what caused the illnesses and deaths. Those can affect the animals eating them and create toxic build ups in them. Another thing he noted in his letter/report, was moldy food being ingested by the feeders.. Several people on many websites have brought this up and questioned if it might be affecting the dragons, due to flacherie in the silkworm, that is often caused by the bad food the silks eat, or other poor conditions such as temps, moisture and more.....

    No one has claimed to be an expert on sericulture, but we have with what I think is good reason, knowledge of the reptiles and past history of ill feeders ingested by reptiles, that *are* verified WITH lab reports, quested if there is a possible link.

    Yes, some of the silk suppliers did did let people know they had a virus and were struggling with getting good colonies going again....... but, had anyone admitted to bacteria issue before yesterday??

    AND WHY THE HECK WAS ANYONE STILL SELLING THEM if they knew they had bacteria issues??

    Maybe I am missing something
     
  21. wormspit

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    Just wanted to share a little more detail on my experience. I actually joined this forum because I kept getting hits to my website from links posted here - I'm the one with the photo page on grasserie at www.wormspit.com

    I don't have lizards. I raise silkworms for their silk, and for use in educational presentations to schools, museums, handweavers guilds, etc.

    I don't use artificial food during the green season; I raise my silkworms on fresh mulberry leaves whenever possible.

    Last year was the first season that I ever experienced grasserie; it was disturbing and very, very gross. The batch that I had serious trouble with was from a sericultural institute in Italy; the eggs were shipped to me direct from Italy, and weren't handled by anyone but the folks at the Institute and me.

    I started out with well over a thousand eggs; it was two full egg circles, but some of them were crushed in transit. Hatching and early stage growth was perfectly normal and healthy.

    I started having serious difficulty in the fifth instar. They just started dying off in droves. I improved my hygeine techniques, and it seems to have made quite an improvement. I did end up with just over 250 apparently healthy strong cocoons, and I bred to the line.

    The caterpillars this season are healthy so far (touching wood) - they are third instar now, and eating like little horses.

    I really do wonder if there has been solely an issue of egg infection, or if this is just a "bug bug" that goes around - I know that insects can carry it, and it can be infectious by ingestion. I'll know a lot more in another three or four weeks, when I have spinners from the offspring from last year's group - and whether I have sick ones again. If this batch will grow, spin, hatch, and breed without apparent signs of disease, then I think they'll be OK.
     
  22. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    Now that is interesting info as the other eggs that had grasserie had come from Japan and China (althought it is possible the chinese ones were infected from the Japanese ones once they were in the US)

    I would love to know where you get fresh mulberry leaves from in Texas

    I will admit I do not know a lot about silks, I joined your Yahoo group to learn more and have been reading there and other sites online, I just found another one that I will post when I am done with it, its from the early 1900 but very interesting. I had no idea raising these was so popular 100 years ago in the US.

    Anyway, according to some of the reading I have done, if the parents both were infected with grasserie, you should see infections sooner in the offspring than you saw in the parents group. If the male were infected but the females clear, it will not happen til the 4th - 5 instar and if the female were infected, its around the 3rd instar if I remember correctly.
     
  23. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    Here is that link to the 100 year old information on silkworm raising (for silk) I do not know how correct some of this is now as I am sure some of the info has changed. It is very detailed and long http://www.oldandsold.com/articles04/textiles16.shtml it has info on diseases of silks and the info on how to increase silk production is very interesting and I wonder it it is truly accurate!
     
  24. wormspit

    wormspit Embryo

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    I would love to know where you get fresh mulberry leaves from in Texas

    Cheri, they're *everywhere*.

    There is a fruitless variety which is a popular landscape tree. I have a huge one in my front yard, and there are 3 or 4 other big ones on my block.

    Then there is the wild type, which is a trash tree. They are distributed by birds, and show up in lots of easements, vacant lots, behind buildings, etc. There are several near my office alongside an overpass, and I can walk along the sidewalk and pick tender leaves from the top of the trees!
     
  25. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    We checked the plant nurseries here and they say they do not grow here :D I asked about a town we have her called Mulberry, Florida that was suppost to be named after a big tree in it and they said the type the silksworms need is not that type.

    Since the do grow in Texas, then I would think they would grown here in Floirda. Is there a certain type that they need? If you want you can PM or email me with it
     

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