Sudden Aggression Issues

Discussion in 'Water Dragons' started by Karlee, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. Karlee

    Karlee Member

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    I know I shouldnt worry about this but what I am worried about is if I got two males. I cant afford a second cage and I really dont want to give either up. I noticed them head bobbing and chasing each other (not attacking) on several occassions yesterday. Normally it was Jimmety Cricket who does this. I am almost 100% positive he is male. He is getting a larger head, developing a large crest, and that is the only two signs I think he is male. Candy though, has a very small crest she is starting to develop and a smaller head then Jimmety Cricket but I dont know for sure. They are EXACTLY the same size. Normally it is Jimmety Cricket who does the chasing and head bobbing, especially for the best basking spot (we have two basking spots). I have not seen Candy show any aggression except once she ran him out of the basking spot. Is this all in my head?
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. wren152

    wren152 Member

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    We actually have this in our Twins! (they aren't actually twins, just from the same clutch, and we got them at the same time and they looked identical when we first brought them home) But one is a male, we think, and the other is a suspected female, and they have the same thing going on. We did research when we first got our original four CWD's, and everything said 'never have more than one per cage' but as they grew up, we found that they were VERY social, followed each other from tank side a to side b, slept together, etc. The original four are all gone except for Darwin, due to the terrible health they were in when we got them, but the twins are keeping Darwin more active, so that's good. But I wouldn't worry unless they actually start biting and fighting a lot. One time Twin 1 (male?) bit Twin 2 (female?) but didn't hurt her, and then they were cool and sat together. If Candy keeps running away, then it's fine-the only concern is if they actively fight all the time. Since you do have 2 basking spots, she can still get warm, and make sure there's enough food for them both, and you'll be fine. When we lost 3 of our original four, Darwin suffered mightily and got really lonely until we got the twins. They're actually very social animals. Darwin and Simon used to sleep together EVERY night, until Simon passed away. The Twins are really the only reason Darwin came out of her depression, I think. : D
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. Karlee

    Karlee Member

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    Thanks, that means a lot to know that I probably didnt get two males. They dont fight too often, it is normally Jimmety Cricket head bobbing and chasing her. And I am so sorry about your other CWDs. Jimmety Cricket wouldnt even eat until we got Candy, and now those two get along well. And Jimmety Cricket is about ten inches, so could he just have a build up of hormones or something? I think thats what it is since it is always Jimmety Cricket doing the chasing. Then Candy would jump in the water and he is too afraid of it to get in after her.
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. wren152

    wren152 Member

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    Well, our twins were basically identical when we got them, but now Twin 1 is bigger, a little darker perhaps, is developing more of a crest, etc, and he's the agressive one. Twin 2 is growing fast, but she's staying smaller than Twin 1 in general, a little lighter colored, and she's always irking him, it seems. XD But they get along. So yeah, I mean, it's hard to tell until they're adults, but it sounds like both of us just have a male and a female, or at least I hope so. We're guessing that Darwin is female too, she's bigger so it's a little easier to tell, though she doesn't grow like the Twins-we got the original four with a slew of problems, so maybe her small size in comparison to the Twins' growth rate is because of that? I haven't got a clue, but we hope the best for her anyways. But in any case, Jimmety Cricket sounds pretty similar to our Twin 1. : D Boys will be boys!
    Do you have any pictures of the set up you have? Maybe Jimmety Cricket thinks the water is too deep for him, currently? XD He'll grow into it. : D Oh! Today I can post pictures of all my darlings! I'mma do that! Yaaaay!! And then I'll do HW. *sigh* XD
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. Karlee

    Karlee Member

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    Well, all lizards grow at a different pace. It could be of how much food she is getting or the nutrition, or maybe she just grows slow. It is hard to tell without a comparison. And I dont think it is too deep for him. Candy gets in it just fine when she wants to cool down or poop. The water is only as deep as the base of their neck, and always a constant 85 degrees. But the thing his, he wont even go into water that wont even go over his paw unless it is lapping. And I dont have a pic but we are working on their adult cage which will be done as soon as the sealer fumes are gone. The cage is quite large for one, a bit smaller for two. I know for sure Jimmety Cricket is male. We took them to a breeder who has breeded CWDs for fifty years and he says Jimmety Cricket is in fact male, Candy is too young to tell. He thinks she is female just because of their comparisons. Well, if they do turn out male and female, I wont worry about inbreeding;). Well, I hope I wont have to worry about breeding in the first place. They have to be in the same cage since we cant afford a second one, so I just hope I can prevent it. Do they have a season or something? If they do, I can put a divider in maybe. I know beardies have to go through brumation before "getting in the mood", but I am not sure about CWDs. Do they both have to go through brumation?
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. wren152

    wren152 Member

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    I've never heard of CWD's brumating, actually, and ours seemed active all through winter. I dunno actually, if they have a specific breeding season. We've never worried about it too much, and so far it's worked out, even with the older ones when we still had them. Sorry I can't give you a good answer about CWD brumation. : O I can't remember what I've read about it.
     
  12. Karlee

    Karlee Member

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    Its alright. I just dont know how to care for baby CWDs and dont have an incubator. Boy, am I glad I dont need to worry about this now. I am going to miss the days where they will fit in the palm of your hand. You wont need to worry about egg binding or accidental breeding. You dont need to worry about the male being aggressive to your female. A giant cage. A deeper dish. None of that. I really just want them to stay like this forever.
     
  13. Cammy

    Cammy ReptileBoards Addict

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    If you are sure that even one is a male, then it's time to start making arrangements for separation. If you have a male and a female together, the male will reach maturity before the female and will try to mate with her. This is not a maybe situation--he will mate with her. Breeding a female before she has reached sexual maturity is obviously bad for the female's long term health. It will lead to a shorter lifespan and possibly serious reproductive health complications. The only time you might be okay is if you have two females. But like I said, if you have even one male, you'll have to house them separately until they are older.
     
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  14. Karlee

    Karlee Member

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    Do you know what age it is when they both will reach maturity? If you dont, its ok. And will they be aggressive when I introduce them again? My biggest issue is keeping them from mating, I want to completely throw that in the trash. I am thinking about spaying and nuetering but I dont know what age they need to be to do this procedure. Do they need to be a certain age? If you can answer any of these it will help.
     
  15. Cammy

    Cammy ReptileBoards Addict

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    I think males will start showing signs of being ready to mate as early as a year old, but females are not fully mature until at least 2 years old. I don't believe you can spay or neuter a lizard safely...
     
  16. StikyPaws312

    StikyPaws312 Moderator

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    Ok I've haven't posted until now but now that you've mentioned that you definitely have at least one male I think it's time to reiterate a few things - If you have at least 1 male it is your responsibility to keep both of your dragons safe, the only way to do so is to separate the two dragons. If you have 1 male and 1 female, both are young and Cammy is 100% correct, the male will be sexually mature way before the female's body is ready to safely be gravid. You are already aware of all of the complications that can arise from a "teen pregnancy" (calcium crash, egg binding, malnutrition, stunted growth, etc. etc). With that said - please know that water dragons can retain the sperm for possibly up to 2 years. It just takes once and you can have a gravid female and a number of hatchlings to care for.
    On the other hand, if the smaller of your water dragons turns out to be another male you have to separate them anyway, so why not do it now before you have a too young, dangerously gravid female on your hands?

    Please thoroughly read through all of the care, diet, housing, breeding, etc information on this website. It is widely known to be one of the oldest and best sources of information on water dragons. Please specifically see this article about water dragon mating and the stresses and injuries that occur just from putting the female in with the male for a short period of time.

    I'm only saying this because you obviously care deeply about your animals and want to care for them properly and keep them safe and healthy. If breeding is not your intent and you have expressed concerns about not being able to afford another large enclosure, how will you cover the necessary vet visits for a gravid female or the enclosures needed for hatchlings? Or the vet bills to spay an neuter your WDs? Is there an exotics vet in your area that will do the surgeries? Most won't.... Also, a "safe" breeding age for WD's is 2 years old.
     
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  17. Karlee

    Karlee Member

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    Actually, the one we took Kiki to actually does surgeries on herps. And I dont think it is THAT expensive to get one neutered. Dogs are like $80? I dont think they will exceed from my price limit. My limit is $250. I dont think the cost of both will easily exceed that. I want to keep them together just because Jimmety Cricket is so social. I mean he tries to do everything with her. I havent seen him try to twine tails, but I have seen him try to eat with her, sleep with her, try to swim with her but it never works out, he is just so social. He is more social than teens which is part of the problem with seperating them. He never wants to be alone. He will even try to snuggle with you which I dont mind but I cant do it 24/7. I have other things to do. And I know how having a gravid female, even if she is the right age, can shorten her life span. Which is the main reason why I dont want them to breed, yet I dont want them to be seperate. I know I am asking for two different things that are nearly impossible to ask for, but I just cant do it any other way. I tried seperating them and all night Jimmety Cricket was awake, running around the cage looking for her. I couldnt get him to eat until I put Candy back. Then I fed him when I came home and he ate as soon as food was offered. Do you know how much it will cost to spay and nueter them? I know his behavior is not common, but I wont tell a lie. He is extremely social and Candy is just like a big sister to him (or maybe a little sister, I dont know their ages).
     
  18. StikyPaws312

    StikyPaws312 Moderator

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    I'm not quite sure where you live so I can't call around to vets in your area but just for reference my female lab mix was just a hair under $500 to spay a couple years ago.... Reptile surgery is special surgery and not done often and usually only by very experienced vets and usually only for very dire circumstances.... I really don't think it is a very good option, safe for your reptiles, nor a very cheap option. You can call around to a couple of vets who *might* give you a base quote over the phone.
     
  19. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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    A good friend of mine just got her dog spayed, it was about $400.

    Spaying and Neutering of reptiles (usually seen in Iguanas) is a pretty serious surgery; it MUST be done by a very qualified herp vet and is imperative that the animals are of appropriate age with a clean bill of health. You cannot perform a surgery like this on a young animal, they will most likely die. Unfortunately, the time it will take these lizards to reach an adequate size for "safe" surgery, they will already be past their point of sexual maturity. They will need to be separated regardless before you have anything performed for some time while they grow.

    You can get a second opinion from the Vet, based on their experience, but its not a foolproof procedure. These are much more likely to result in complications and death than routine dog and cat procedures due to reptile anatomy.
     
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  20. Karlee

    Karlee Member

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    Why cant the world of herps be simple? I am thinking of an opaque divider since I cant afford a second cage, will that work? Until I find out a pernament soloution to this is what I mean. Jimmety Cricket is too social but can very easily put Candy at risk, I'm between a rock and a hard place. I am not going to give up Candy because this will happen all over again and I would rather keep all my herps if that is the case. Can Jimmety Cricket grow out of this social behavior? Cause this is the only blockage for me to seperate them. Cause if this is a juvie behavior, I will be more than happy to seperate them now until they are both a safe age. I always have spares, they just arent as big as they should and Kiki is taking up that spare since we put the CWDs in her cage. I might be able to switch them back, but will a fifty gallon work for a while?
     
  21. StikyPaws312

    StikyPaws312 Moderator

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    Lol when dealing with multiple reptiles it's never simple. An opaque divider will work as long as you can still give both of them adequate lighting, heating, food, water, climbing, and turning space.

    Yes, being social is usually a hatchling and juvie behavior, as they mature and their hormones kick up they become more territorial and the mating instinct kicks in.

    I would look around on craigslist or call local pet shops or specifically aquarium shops and see if they have any tanks that they are selling that have been used (usuallly they have holes cut in them that can be patched easily or even create extra ventilation for you, or can't hold water any more which would be ok since you don't necessarily need to - you could put a pre-formed "bath" in there for them). There are a lot of ways to make a safe, appropriate home for your reptile that is very cost-efficient. I am 100% confident that you can put together a nice tank for Candy well under $250. You could use a cheap kitty litter box as a water/swimming area, you could find a cheap tank locally (used from craigslist, pet shop, or second hand store), you could walk through the woods after a storm and find a nice branch and disinfect it and bake it to make sure there aren't any bugs and use that in the tank for her climbing space, you could just use paper towel as a substrate for now. Just about the only thing you would really have to not skimp on is the basking and UV light and the fixture... You can go to home depot and get full spectrum growers lights (just make sure it's the spectrum you need specifically) and you can even buy the cheap clamp-lamps as holders. All in all the entire thing should cost you about $100 to $150 depending on how cheap you find the tank :)
     
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  22. Karlee

    Karlee Member

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    Thank god, that really has helped me. I just put them into their adult cage (it is too short for an adult but the roof comes off and isnt bolted down so I plan on adding another box when they need it) that is five feet long, four feet wide, and three feet tall. I have a piece of acrilic I can use as a divider and I could tape computer paper to it, will that work and will they still have enough space? And can I one day safely re introduce them? I would still like to one day just because I am worried about Jimmety Cricket. I am thinking when they are too old for breeding (I really hope that day comes sooner than I think it will). And about Candy's new cage, I just spent a truck load of money on building Jimmety Cricket's new cage (it really did turn out nice. I will post a pic as soon as I figure out my stupid camera). And I am donating most of my money to their food (having four growing lizards, two dogs, and a parakeet means A LOT of money spent each week). And then my house is $3,000 a month and we are moving out as soon as the lease is done, I really need something cheap to bite on. I hear how people use refrigerators that dont work any more as incubators, can I rebuild one as a herp cage? I already have one that broke a while ago so will that work? It traps heat pretty well and I could take of the door, put in some acrilic (we used to build fish tanks so we have a lot left over) and drill ventilation holes in them. It will take me a while to do this still because I am juggling so many things, but as a pernament soloution will it work? And when should I seperate them? I am going to seperate them but I need to know what is my time limit because they are both definatly under a year old and if Jimmety Cricket reaches maturity before I am done, boy am I in a world of trouble.
     

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