The guy at the petshop were I get my crickets tells that he has had his 2 Asian Water dragons in a 55 gallon tank with 2 Whites Dumpy tree frogs aned has not had any problems. Has onyone ever heard of this before and what are your opinions?
Species mixing is generally a bad idea, for various reasons. This is straight out of an article from my website, to avoid re-typing info I've already written out: "You see it in pet stores all the time: Small aquariums filled with a multitude of different species. But, typically, mixing species is not a good idea, for several reasons: 1- Even if all of the animals are roughly the same size, larger lizards will take dominance over smaller ones, or even may consider the smaller lizards prey (you would be surprised how large a meal some lizards might go after, especially if they're in a stressful, cramped cage situation). Also, when you first acquire the lizards, they may be the same size, but if you are not familiar with the species, you might end up with one lizard that grows to be twice the size of another. Also, what if one species is more agressive than another? The mellower animals would again end up being picked on, and eventually become ill and die if not eaten. 2- Any "community" terrarium (a term used by fish keepers, any enclosure containing more than one species) must be big. Every species must be allowed its own space, its own basking spot, its own hiding spots and its own feeding areas. You'll need at least double the space that you would provide the species who needs the most. Many types of herps are territorial, so this must be taken into consideration. Particularly, multiple males (of the same, or similar, species) should not be housed together, as they can be very aggressive towards each other. 3- Any animals you mix must come from the same habitat. Aside from the absolutely ludicrous idea of mixing desert species with forest species for example (which, and this should go without saying, NOT be done), even if two animals come from the same place (geographically), it does not necessarily mean that their needs are similar. Microhabitats within larger ecosystems are home to tons of species, and the conditions in microhabitats can be drastically different from the rest of the area the animal comes from. Imagine this example: You have two lizards that live in the Amazon. However, one is a ground-dwelling skink, one is a tree-dwelling gecko. Although they both live in the same forest, the skink needs slightly cooler temperatures, higher humidity, places to burrow... A totally different habitat than the gecko, who lives in the forest canopy, would need different food than the skink, an arboreal set up, different temperatures and humidity, etc... Two very different needs from two animals that come from the same place. Mixing species that you would see together in the wild is not a guaranteed success, either. If they get along out there, there could be a slight chance that in captivity they could co-exist in an enclosure. But, in the wild, they are not in an enclosed space where food and the best hiding and basking spots may be limited. Also, it may very difficult, if not impossible for some species, to re-create a portion of that animal's habitat down to the tiniest species of moss. Once an animal is in a habitat unfamiliar to them, you cannot be certain how it would react to other animals. 4- Disease is common among many reptile and amphibian species because so many of them are still wild-caught. Bacteria are almost a guarantee (and other microorganisms could possibly be infecting one or more lizards), and even if they happen to be a kind of bacterium that is not harmful to one of the species you are keeping, if the other animals come from the other side of the world, their immunity to this particular organism is likely non-existant, resulting in one or more sick animals who will need to be separated and get veterinary attention. 5- Reptiles and amphibians, by nature, are solitary animals, only purposely grouping together to either hibernate or breed. Saying that a herptile "enjoys" the company of another, or that two herptiles are "friends," is grossly personifying the animals. Reptiles and amphibians, although some of the more intelligent species can seem to almost display mammal or bird-like personality attributes, do not have the mental capacity to "enjoy" another reptile or amphibian's company, or be "friends" with it. If all of these possibilities are very real, then why do those animals in the pet stores seem fine when they're housed together? What many people fail to realize, is that these lizards are stuck in a situation where they are already weakened and stressed from being transported to the pet store (and additionally, if they are wild caught, they are frightened and confused by their new, restricted surroundings), frightened at the noises and constant movement around their aquarium and by the other animals they share it with. Simply put: They are so stressed, confused and frightened that they don't know how to react. Because animals are in and out of pet stores so often, the period they are in these conditions may not do permanent damage to the animal if their next home is a good one. But in most cases, any animals that are housed this way and are not sold by the pet store for an extended period of time do end up sick, and most die. With all of this in mind... A mixed species enclosure is possible, even though it's not advisable because there are so many things that can be wrong with a community enclosure. Extensive research should be done to be certain that the species' habitats, size and temperament are all compatible, and that ample space is available to construct an enclosure with as many basking, hiding and feeding spots as needed. Creating a mixed species enclosure can be very time and money consuming, you cannot simply take a 20 gallon aquarium, throw in a bunch of different lizards and frogs and expect it to thrive, or even live very long. The last thing you want to do is to recreate the stereotypical "pet store" community enclosure. Small, non-tempermental (and nocturnal) house gecko species and green anoles (Anolis carolinensis) seem to be fine together if allowed their own space, for example. Green anoles and American green tree frogs, Hyla cinera, can co-exist in a properly set up habitat. Although some lizards and some treefrogs can sometimes co-exist, putting snakes, chelonians (turtles, tortoises and terrapins) and salamanders together with lizards is usually not a good idea. The vast majority of these animals have care requirements that are too different, and many recognize the others as food. A very large (relatively) enclosure with several microhabitats would be necessary for such a setup, with the exception of snakes. Many snakes are "eat anything" predators that may not distinguish between cagemates and prey. For this reason, snakes are usually best kept to themselves, or similar-sized (and non-snake-eating) species. Also, if you want to mix species, each animal must be properly quarantined for at least 60 days (90 is better), and throughly checked by a reptile/amphibian veterinarian. This is an extremely important step, as a single sick animal can infect the rest of your enclosure's population. "
I understand all the risks and dangers involved in what I ask however what I was originally looking for was either an educated opinion or perhaps someone that may have actually done this and could give some history on what I would expect. They are not together now and probably never will be I am just curious.
Basically, all of the above is what you could expect and should take into consideration in this situation. Most of the info is essentially there, but I'll specify (it was late last night): I'll give the guy the credit that both White's and CWDs come from jungly-forests, with high humidity. But there definitely must be adequate space for both species to thermoregulate properly, as CWDs need a temp range of 29-35C (84-95F), and White's only need 27-30C (80-86F). Those few degrees can make a big difference if the tree frogs have no place where they feel secure to stay on the cool side, because amphibians are very sensitive to heat stress and hyperthermia. A few minutes or so of overheating can kill an amphibian. Potential disease is always a concern, as although both species may be captive bred, they still have their own indigenous bacteria that could accumulate in unsafe amounts for the other species in an enclosure. Because these two species are not from the same locality, this is an important concern. I would also worry about the dragons unintentionally hurting the frogs. CWDs are active lizards, and they might not realize the frog is not a branch while cruising around in the enclosure. Dragon claws are sharp, amphibian skin is fragile. Those two do not go together. By the way, how long have they been together? "Has not had any problems" doesn't mean anything, as stress is a slow, silent killer. CWDs can live 10-20 years, and White's can live 15-20. I would not at all be surprised if the animals in that setup lived to only 50-75% of their potential lifespan in that situation. Any experienced herpetoculturist will tell you that in the world of reptiles and amphibians, cagemates = stress. Has each animal been quarantined before being placed together? Has each been tested for parasites? Those are very basic steps when you're putting two animals together, much less two different species together. While it's true that reptiles and amphibians do not share all potential parasites, there are plenty that they can get from each other, so fecal testing should have been done, no question.
One day dim little frog shall concure the incloture and eeeeeeeee, ahhhh!!! No not really just kidding, but yes I have heard of this before in the iguana posting and the person mixed together a igy and a turtle. bUT THAT WAS DIFFERENT
Yeah they are I agree, only thing is the person who owned the iguana and the turtle didn't have any other place to put it. But now I'ts over with and the turtle and the iguana have there own tanks.
With no disrespect intended to anyone, I've never really understood the whole problem with mixing species. I've seen it done many times without problems. I know people who have never had problems mixing a variety of small lizards from the same habitats. I mean, in reality, the temperature isn't exactly 75 degrees nor the humidity 60% at every single moment anywhere on the planet. And in any multiple animal enclosure, same species or not, there will always be a dominant animal. So, unless you keep every single specimen by itself, there's going to be that stress somewhere of a dominant lizard. This happens in any type of social group, whether nature or captivity. As long as there's ample space and ample food, I haven't seen any cases in any books or reputable magazines where cagemate dominance has caused shortened lifespans. Obviously, problems occur when you try to shove two adult male WDs into a 55 gallon tank, but that leads up to my next point. Just for the record, I work in a pet store where we mix green anoles, bahama anoles, house geckos, and sometimes longtailed grass lizards. We haven't had any of them die in about a year now. What's really important about doing it right is being knowledgeable about what you're mixing. And like Christina said, quarantining. I, however, don't give this guy any credit. Like Christina said, WDs are active, and amphibian skin doesn't hold up well to claws. I'd also be worried about the WDs eating the ampibians as they grow. Sure, Whites grow into decent-sized frogs, but WDs grow into good sized lizards that could easily make a meal out of an adult Whites.
Mixing definitely can be done, but my problem with it is that people try to jump into it without considering the risks and precautions that need to be taken. From various sources, stressed animals of any species generally live shorter lives than non-stressed specimens. I'm not insinuating that your mixed lizards are in poor health, but a year is not that long (even to a lizard who's lifespan can top 8 years), and death is not the only indicator of a problem with the environment. I'm pretty sour to the idea of mixing species, mostly because I've seen too many savannah monitor/green iguana, green anole/tokay gecko, garter snake/American toad, firebelly toad/firebelly newt... well, I guess you get the idea-- dumb mixes. But... in the future, I would like to try a well planned out mixed-species enclosure, probably with arboreal gecko species.
Yeah, I can definitely understand how that sours the idea. And that's what I mean. A lot of people rush into stuff because it looks cool w/o doing any research. That annoys me too. I know a year is only a short span of their lives. We don't tend to keep a lot of them for very long, though they're definitely not top sellars. I think we've had some of our oldest bahama anoles for about 7 months now. Most of my regulars aren't anole people, so I don't get a lot of feedback after they go home. :/
ok i understand that there is a lot of people saying they don't like mixing their reptiles. Fair enough. I have a frilled neck lizard and my hinese water dragon an they live in the same viv. NO problems. They sleep together and the frilled neck sits my the wd's back. They even bathe together. So yes while you have to be careful, I have found success with mine, and they don't fight over food either.
I find it quite hard to mix the same species successfully. Theres all sorts of problems to consider. I just wouldn`t even consider trying to mix species.
hey,...i have been mixing species for quite some time now...and no problems as of yet (about a year)...i keep 2 crested geckos (aboreal geckos) with a green tree frog, and they get along great
To be fair, a year is a short amount of time, as cresties can live over 15 years, and green trees can pass 8 if I'm not mistaken. So it's comparable to saying "Yeah, I was exposed to gamma radiation daily for five years of my life, but I'm fine so far." You won't know what kind of long-term, slowly-evolving damage will come around. I'm not saying that it is totally impossible for this mix. But I hope you took the proper precautions to reduce the risks of disease transmission.
i did indeed, i have been keeping herps for over two years, and read almost daily, as much information as i can.......btw what is gamma radiation
lol, not to dwarve your experience and knowledge, but I've been keeping herps for over 15 years, I'm a senior student in veterinary technology, and I've been published in herp care magazines. In my experience, mixing is a bad idea. What were the precautions you took? Gamma radiation is a form of "x-rays," it's highly penetrating, ionizing and can pass through the human body. This is essentially what you get hit with if you have x-rays taken. Prolonged exposure can cause cancer.
what do u mean precautions? i took many...i did as much research on the 2 types of herps i planned on mixing...actually an article in Reptile USA inspired me to...and hey...gimmi 13 years and ill be in your boat... what magazines are u in??? i have perscriptions to about 5 different herp magazines
You already replied "I did indeed" to my question/comment of whether you took the necessary precautions. But now, I assume that you've either skimmed through of failed to read the rest of this thread, as you're missing something extremely important. Read the above posts in this thread and you'll learn what you're missing. Although Reptiles often has good information, they also have some horrible authors that have suggested things that are downright dangerous for herps (death rocks [aka hot rocks], vitamin-fortified sand substrates, etc.). Species mixing is often attempted by novices but should be kept for the experts. And the owner must be willing and able to pay the necessary veterinary expenses for both preventative measures and treatment if something were to go wrong. The people whose opinions and experiences I take the most credit from are the very long-term hobbyists and the herp vets that have made huge advances in herp medicine and surgery. The vets are the ones that see the end results of poor husbandry, which unfortunately for the animals is usually a dead one.
alright...well...in order to maintain a happy mixed species vivarium, i believe the species must be from the same habitat, (ie, humidity, temp must be similar)...i have cared for both my tree frog and cresties seperatly, and they maintained the same humidity (70-75) and temp (70-80)...and my question is, if u maintain the specified care for both, clean and monitor cage daily, and promote a happy, healthy varied diet for both, y cant 2 happy health species just become one...? i mean i monitor them daily, spot clean daily, fresh food daily, fresh water daily, and once a week i do a full clean down of the enclosure...y cant they live happily together, as i have said in many other posts of this nature, i somtimes witness my green tree frog sleeping on my crestie(s) or visa versa...i have witnessed NO problems as of yet (7 or 8 months apprx)...i mean...i take every precaution daily, and if there ever was a problem, i would immediatly separate them (which i have done recently, i was concerend about a stool sample, separated them, then i realized it was nothing, so i put them back)...all that is nessecary to maintain a mixed species viv is common sence, dedication and cleanslyness...and it bothers me when ppl bash on somthing i have done and put alot of care and effort into, when they have never tried it themselves, i challenge u to try it, and i am sure u will be supprised with the outcomes...i am not saying i am an EXPERT herper, but i definatly know what i am doing, and i take every precaution nessecary to maintain a happy, healthy relationship between all my pets
I think you missed my point. A very basic step before putting any animals together, same species or not, is to have a clean bill of health given by a vet. This includes, but shouldn't be limited to, a fecal exam for intestinal parasites. I'm not saying your animals aren't healthy, but watch for signs of stress in the long run. The two species you have do indeed come from similar environments, and at least they're both pretty well-tempered. If you continue to keep a close eye on them you could have a successful community enclosure. By the way, you don't need to challenge me. I've successfully kept mixed species enclosures before. Anolis carolinensis, Cosymbotus platyurus and Takydromus sexlineatus. All individuals lived to the extent of their lifespans. I realized I didn't answer one of your questions: I have a regular column in Reptile Care Magazine (from the UK) on herp behavioural issues, and Reptiles recently accepted an article of mine (yet to find out which issue it'll be in).
