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Discussion in 'Bearded Dragons' started by GizandLiz, Dec 22, 2002.

  1. GizandLiz

    GizandLiz New Member

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    My website is half up and running. I have a few pics of my babies on there. Could you guys estimate the age of Liz, as the breeder won't answer my e-mails. I bougt her in July (I think), and she was supposed to be 6 month if I can rememmber right. She has stopped shedding, and likes the cooler side of her tank. Her eating is not really feroshus, just polite I guess. Sometimes she will get interested in crix (mostly when I am out of the room). I think she might be a lawsons or a renkins.

    Well, here is the link

    <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/kevins_pets/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/kevins_pets/index.html</a>


    [Edited on 22/3/2003 by GizandLiz]
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    Not sure of age, I can only guess, but she looks to be very young, certainly not adult, more like a 9 month old. She is gorgeous!

    She is also a stripe pattern and you don't see those real often, but I can never remember seeing a stripe rankin. I emailed a friend that raises rankins and asked him to look and he does not think she is one.

    How long is she and her weight, she is on the thinner side. What is her hot area temp? have you had a fecal done on her for parasites and you might want to think about a gram strain also, those are two of the biggest causes of slow growth and not good appetite.

    She has an adorable face/head, but it appears more like a vitticeps than rankin to us.
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. GizandLiz

    GizandLiz New Member

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    How much is the gram thing? Her basking temp is at 105-110, and her cool side is around 80. I feed her so much to try and fatten her up. I know you are not in favor of this, but I feed her waxies to try and fatten her up. I did not do like 20 a day, just like 2-5 a day to do more of an experiment. She really didn't respond, so I gave the rest to Giz (he was happy).

    What about an appitite stimulant? Would that work?

    Thanks for e-mailing your friend. I just thought she might be one due to her size, unless the breeder misinformed me about age.

    Yeah, I am really happy w/ her disposition and color, and she is enjoyable to watch. I was just guessing on the size thats why I thougfht she might be a renkind, but you most definitely know more than me (I know the everyday stuff).

    She is up today and running around today. Maybe she was catching a bunch of zzzs. Will keep you updated!
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    Gram stains cost about $10-$15. Since gram negative is the most common type of bacteria in reptiles, its the next thing to look at after fecals for coccidia and can be done from the same sample.

    And its not that I don't approve of feeding wax worms to beardies, it was the main diet along with emeraid supplement that we gave one that was very ill for a long time, AFTER we ruled out all other possibilities and knew he would probably not survive long. He did til 10 months of age, it was better than him starving. Since we knew we would mostly likely lose him before he was an adult, the damage from eating high fat was outweighted by his needs at the time.

    My problem is when others recommend it to a dragon's owner that is thin, when there may be some simple reason they are and it can be treated and avoid problems later on, it masks the problem and the animal will have long term effects from that, plus the high fat content. The pathology showed he had a problem that doomed him from the start, but it also showed the several months effect of the wax worms and that would have killed him eventually if the virus he had not. You have to weigh the options and decide what is best for them

    As far as size, we have a friend that has a beautiful, very healthy 13 inch full grown male vitticeps... just small. He was from normal parents and never had a problem, just very small. It happens to humans and other animals, so why not dragons?

    IF you have ruled out other common medical problems that can be treated.... I would not hesitiate to feed waxies to another dragon to keep something in them..... my concern is masking a problem that can be serious if untreated.

    You lil gal is looks alert and head shaped nice and filled out, she just may be a delicate eater... and will put on weight when she matures, but still i would get a fecal float and a gram strain to rule out those problems.
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. GizandLiz

    GizandLiz New Member

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    Sounds good. I will probably make an apt. for after New Years. Can I wait that long, or is it an ASAP thing. Money is tight right now.

    I see what you are sayin about mealies. I know you and that other guy had a difference of opinion at dt.com.

    Thats too bad that you had to have a little guy go through that. I am glad that I have your expert advice on this topic.

    I will keep you posted.

    Oh yeah, she is alert and has kinda slowed her shedding. She will eat crix sometimes, and some veggies, but I think its just a crap shoot on weather or not she will. Depends on if she is hungry. Who knows, maybe she is one of those ones who gorges themselves on a little bit. Its hard for me to know b/c my male is a garbage disposal. I bet I could throw my cat to him, and he could mow them right over :) , so maybe I have a mid ranged eater and a great eater? Who knows.

    Will let you know.
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    you meant wax worms in that last post I think..... we fed all ours mealies and supers(adults).

    Waiting a week should not make a difference as long as she is eating something. Your temps are good, so thats not a problem and that helps them digest and keeps up their own immune system. IF you did not have the temps you do, and she does have parasites or bacteria, you would be seeing other serious problems. Good temps and cleanliness alone has been shown to reduce parasites and bacteria with the reptile being able to deal with it with their own immune system.

    Only other question I have, is the male and female where they can see each other? Sometimes one can stress out the other, especially a larger one to a smaller one and that can affect their eating.

    Many Vets will accept a fecal sample without having to see the reptile and will see them if the fecal is positive to weigh and proper dose them.

    Keep us posted on her.
     
  12. GizandLiz

    GizandLiz New Member

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    Yeah I did mean waxies.

    Yeah they can see each other. I know he can be a bully, but she has not minded up until now. She and he look at each other and then go back to their normal lives.

    If you can remember the layout of my room, there is not a lot I can do. What do you suggest. They have never minded each other.

    Hmmmmmm, maybe thats it. After New Years if she has not perked up then its to the vet w/ a fecal.

    Problem is, she has good and bad days, One day she will be all over her tank, and others she will just sleep and sit and watch. Any ideas?
     
  13. GizandLiz

    GizandLiz New Member

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    I think she was a bit dehydrated. I have started bathing her at least once a day untill she is back to heath, but she seems fine now. Just being lazy like usual, but she is awake and aware.

    So you only think she is 9 mnths? I swear the breeder told me 6 months when I bought her in July (late july). I contcted the breeder before thanksgiving, and nothing nodda zip. When I bough her the breeder said that she always sent something out before Christmas as a how are they doing type of thing, but alas, nothing. I think I was dupped. I could have swarn she was older though. Maybe she is just a smaller one?

    Ok, I just heard back for the breeder. It was rigt after I posted that.

    [Edited on 31/12/2002 by GizandLiz]
     
  14. GizandLiz

    GizandLiz New Member

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    Here is what I wrote her

    My name is Kevin Bryan, and I bought a female from you at the Taylor Michigan show this summer. She has been doing well after her bought with hook worms. The vet and I believe that she contractewd them due to stress. I had put them togeather, but then had to seperate them. I ended up buying my male a 100 gallon for himself (untill spring :)) and I have her in her own 55 gallon. She is happier now and is eating like a lush...untill now. I have a few questions that I hope you could answer for me.

    1. How old is she? Like I said, I bought her from you last summer, possibly July or August. I need this to time next years possible breeding schedual. Also, I need to know because she might be starting to burmate.
    2. When did I buy her. This is just for my record, and also to tell me when to buy new lights.
    3. What kind is she? She is only 13 inches nose to tail tip. Is it possible that she is a Lawson's or a Renkins (I think that is the mix between an inland and a lawson).
    4. I know someone from a forum who wants some more normal phase ones, and I wanted to know if you still bred them. If it is OK with you, I would love to give her your name as Elizibeth (Liz or Lizzie for short...to go with Gizmo...Giz and Liz...hahaha) is really a nice looking one. She has a nice yellow tint to her with orange around the eyes, ears, and spikes. She will go well with my male who has a yellow tint as well. Her head is a nice yellowish brownish color. She has a great attitude and is always rearanging the sand in her tank.

    I know you are probably busy at work these days with the holidays, but would apreciate a response when you get a spare minute. I will send you pics when I can...I just got some good ones, but have to do it with my scanner...which can be evil at times! Thanks, and I am glad that Liz turned out so well!
     
  15. GizandLiz

    GizandLiz New Member

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    Here is what she wrote back

    Yes, it HAS been terribly busy. Things have quieted down a little, but I'm only beginning to catch up on my rest, from my own classes and other activities I got into which were too much.

    A few quick notes: female beardies, if allowed natural light, start breeding in the early spring. Your lizard's mom, "Ernie," laid her first clutch on her birthday, April 15. My adults are now resting and rarely eat at all. Ernie gets up maybe every week or two and eats some. When she eats, she seems to pig. This week she enjoyed crickets, a pinkie, and a few peas and some moistened iguana dry food. Size is the most important thing about breeding, not age. When a lizard's ready, she's ready. Phantom hasn't touched anything, I don't believe, in quite a few weeks. Just sleeps.

    If you got Liz in July or August, she would be from those who hatched in October of 2001. For all I know, she is a normal Pogona vitticeps, the Inland Bearded Dragon. Except for someone on the net, you just won't see the rarer kinds of dragons available, certainly not at the shows around here. More and more beardies have German Giant in them, however. But that is also just a form of the Pogona vitticeps. Even in the same clutch, lizards vary quite a bit in size. The smaller one's I've had eat, but just maybe not so voraciously as the ones who get big. Ernie was an eater!

    Re lights: do as you will, but I feel that the best UV is sunshine, and that the artificial lights don't do much. I try to see my dragons, safe in a secure dragon cage, get as much sun (ALWAYS WITH SHADE AVAILABLE!) as possible in warmer weather. During the winter, most brumate anyway.... I only use the fancy UV lights on my hatchlings until they are about 4 to 6 months old, just to be sure. I may not even do that next summer, just get them into the sun more.... I have 2 basking lights on the youngsters now, plus a couple 4' Vitalites, but those aren't new and are not something I pay much attention to...

    My babies this year hatched in early August. This crop has the same mom as yours, but their dad is my beatiful pastel guy Phantom (he's out of a white parent and a gold parent). These have either stronger golds or stronger whites, depending on the lizard. My friend Jen hatched and sold a clutch of mine just before the one I kept and hatched, and she had some BEAUTIFUL lizards out of that one, and is keeping several for herself. I have 11 left, and am in no hurry to sell them until they mature more and I can see their colors and so on better. I will sell them now to interested, serious folk, but I don't ship. I may do Taylor, MI, again in the spring, but I don't know... I WILL be doing our Toledo show in April.

    I have not decided what I'll do about Ernie's clutches from next year.... She produces beautiful babies, but in that I won't sell to pet shops and that raising baby dragons is a big chore, I may or may not incubate any of them. Sad. She produces usually 5 clutches that run from about 20 to about 30 eggs each.... Sadly, prices on dragons now have dropped to the point at which hatchlings are almost in a price to be considered "feeder lizards" for larger lizards/snakes!... And there are so many being bred and so many people at shows selling them, that even at that price or lower, you may not sell ANY! That's sad. My biggest thing, however, is that they are in good, caring homes. And when people pay $20 or less for a hatchling, I'm not so sure that they get that good home most of the time.... I hear that wholesale (to distributors and pet shops), the price can now be as low as $5 to $7, even for ones with good coloring....

    You might think twice about breeding........... Once you have babies, you are responsible for them, even if they are eating you out of house and home (each baby goes through at 10 to 20 crickets a day.... Doing the math, that means that a clutch of only 20 babies will eat 200 to 400 crickets A DAY, 1,000 every 2 ½ to 5 days... Before you see any money back, you will be buying crickets (even wholesale and in bulk), at about $15/1,000 = approx. $21 to $42 A WEEK (every week!). So, even if you sold to a distributor when they were delicate infants 2 weeks old, you'd have invested about $40 to $80 or more (just in crickets), and you might not get more than $7 from the distributor, or about $140. And that's assuming you'd FIND a distrutor who wanted them.... And for every week more you had to keep them, you'd still be committed to forking out the $20 to $40 for their crickets.... After only their first month of life, you'd basicly be giving them away to the distributor (you'd just about cover your expenses, no more)... And this assumes that you'd sell them that way, having no idea where the babies would end up, how they'd be cared for, etc.

    I can't do that. So..... I don't know what I'll do with Ernie's eggs next year.... Maybe again, I'll just incubate one clutch and raise those to subadult age, as I am this year. It's sure not a money-making activity, however....

    ok. Gotta run. Hope this helps and that your holidays were great!
     
  16. GizandLiz

    GizandLiz New Member

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    What do you think? I wrote her back, and will post that when I get a response. Any thoughts?
     
  17. CheriS

    CheriS Is well known here

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    I've answered you on the bottom of the thread titled "baratas"


    [Edited on 14/3/2003 by CheriS]
     
  18. GizandLiz

    GizandLiz New Member

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