what do you think?

Discussion in 'Chameleons' started by nomad85, Jun 16, 2005.

  1. nomad85

    nomad85 Member

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    I got my vieled almost a month ago... He was very small, he has more than douled his size(he wouldnt even fit in the container he came home in... Well my question is how much should he eat, cause no matter how much I give him he keeps snaping it up. I gave him 20+ hisser nymphs yesterday(7-8 at a time) and hes already downed 10 today, they are the size of a 1/2 - 3/4 inch cricket but softer. He is in a 10 gallon tank with paper on the sides so he cant see my other beasts, or his reflection. I mist him at least twice a day heavily and I can see him lick his lips. I have a 25 watt bulb that creates a 96 degree basking spot and a reptiglo 8.0 that he can get within 1.5 inch of (I have read that the florecent tubes can produce UVC within 3 inches so I may redo the uvb set up. What do you think?
     
  2. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  3. tinster

    tinster New Member

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    Hey, Nomad. I think veileds have big appetites, so I don't think your cham is over-eating. Infact - it's great that he's got such a good appetite for being in a new environment. I think 10 to 15 nymphs or crickets a day is a good number.

    Sounds like he'll eat as much as you give him - but you shouldn't get in the habit of doing that - it might cause him to bore of that type of food.

    Hope this helps. Tin
     
  4. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  5. whitey4311

    whitey4311 Member

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    Cut it back with his increasing age though or you run the risk of MBD. Their growth cant keep up with the amount the large amount they are fed later in age. At about the 1-4 month old age they should eat about 8-12 small crickets a day, 5-12 months old they eat about 5-6 med crickets a day and as adults 12 months plus they eat about 10 every other day. If you over feed there will be issues on their health but at this age I think you are good since I read somewhere that they need to eat something liek doulble their body weight per week at a young age to thrive.
    Keep in mind baby chams dont require such high temp basking spots and be careful since you are using a glass enclosure it will intensify the heat. Sub nineties to mid eighties should be good until later on.
     
  6. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  7. Sam_Charette

    Sam_Charette New Member

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    You know, the pet store told me the same thing, whitey, about the possibility of MBD if they are overfed, but I can't remember actually reading it anywhere. I do know some places warn you against overfeeding, but don't mention MBD as a specific result. Could you cite your source? I'd love to read an article that goes into more depth about this subject, as most tend to gloss over it.
     
  8. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  9. whitey4311

    whitey4311 Member

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    This is from the Kammerflage breaders and that care sheet I told you they sent me. But I have read it in other places I cant remember as well. There really isnt any depth to it. The idea is that at 0-4 months they gron very fst and require a higher intake of food but it tappers off with age. The issue being at the point it begins to slow down, about 5-12 months, they dont require as much food but if feed a large amount you force growth and their bodies acnt keep up with it. I am not anal enough to measure out any amt of food but what I do is since my chams are now about 6-8 months old I give them 4 med crickets and about 3 silkies med sized a day. I tend to give them 1-2 silkies in the AM with their crickets and one when I get home before their bed time. Unless you are carless and just flood them with food I dont think there will be an issue.
     
  10. JEFFREH

    JEFFREH Administrator

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  11. LadyCham

    LadyCham New Member

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    Are chams prone to over eating? It seems to me herbie eats when hes hungry. sometimes he skips a day, other days he's really hungry. His appetite ranges between 5-15 insects a day. Herbie is 3 years old I also heard UV and excercise will increase there appetite.
     
  12. whitey4311

    whitey4311 Member

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    Yes but its not about appetite its about their growth. They are done growing and are being feed at a rate that promotes growth. I think this is more crucial at a juvinile ages than adult ages. Still that is a lot of food to be feeding him.
     
  13. Sam_Charette

    Sam_Charette New Member

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    Here are some of the things I've read:

    From http://webhome.idirect.com/~chameleon/faq/

    "Q How much should my chameleon eat?
    A Babies and juveniles have veracious appetites and eat anywhere from 20 to 30 bugs a day. They should have a continuous supply during the day. Chameleons are "opportunists" eaters, and will not over eat if they know there is a constant supply of food. They can over-eat, but it is not common. They tend to like to nibble all day. Keep a large amount in a bowl to make it easier for them to find/hunt. I put a wide, deep bowl full of dusted bugs at the bottom of the enclosure and use my glue gun to affix a few small twigs across and leading to the bowl for easy access! It is crucial to use a calcium supplement right from the start. As your baby chameleon matures, he/she needs to fortify his/her bones to accommodate the growth. To much weighs or quick spurts of developmental growth can lead to a weak infrastructure that will not sustain your chameleon."


    From http://www.chameleonjournals.com/faq/index....Nutrition.html

    "How much should I feed my chameleon per day?

    This can vary from a few insects to quite a few. With time you will know what your chameleon needs. I feed mine every day with a break once every other week or so. On some days I will let them eat as many as they want, other days offering a few at a time spaced over the day, as they would eat in the wild. Make sure the feeder insects are not too large. A small chameleon should not be getting adult crickets. Feed as varied a diet as you can. This can include crickets, flies, moths, roaches, wax worms, moths, silk worms, walking sticks, Super worms and wild caught insects. Using the tail base as a guide, you can judge the condition of your animal and know whether you should increase or decrease feedings. If the tail is rounded you are probably overfeeding. If the sides are flattened the animal is probably just right. If you can see the muscles and bones showing through the skin you will need to feed this animal much more."


    From "Chameleons: A Complete Pet Owner's Manual"

    "Despite their perpetually slow-moving lifestyle, chameleons requir daily feedings. In my large step-in cages, this constitutes no problem. I simply maintain a hundred or so crickets (vitamin/mineral enhanced insect feed is always available in the step-ins) in the cages at all times."

    And

    "In smaller cages, glass terraria, or cages where insect diet is not provided, "gut-loaded" insects are offered daily. Those not consumed by the lizards must be removed from the terraria and the insects themselves offered food at the end of the day."


    From http://chameleonsonly.com/feeding.htm (Kammerflage)

    "Avoid overfeeding and leaving unconsumed insects, loose within the enclosure."




    Essentially, everything I've read so far that says anything about how much to feed them suggests that the animal will know how much it wants to eat, and you should remove any excess after. The only thing that said any different was Kammerflage, and even then it didn't define "overfeeding".

    The pet store owner who, by his own admission doesn't know everything about chameleons (as can be seen by the set up I originally started with :) ) said that overfeeding can cause MBD, which I can understand, though at the very least it seems to be a rarely talked about problem.

    Kirby, who is about six months, will generally eat about 10 a day, though some times he won't eat as much by choice. I'd say that as long as the tail isn't getting round, you're not overfeeding. This seems to be the most common identifier of a well fed vs over/underfed chameleon.

    Though again, if there's specific information out there about the MBD thing I'd love to read it, but until then I'd feel bad about not feeding Kirby when he look hungry :)
     
  14. whitey4311

    whitey4311 Member

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    Well I took my advise from a Kammerfalge as they have been in the buisness of breading healthy chams for some years. My cham from them is gorgeous so far and I follow what they have fined tuned over the years. I have spoke with the owner several times and picked her brain and what she has published as a care sheet has been tinkered and adjusted over the years to what they have found works the best for healthy chams. It sounds like there is no perfect way to go about it but I have been cutting my veilds diet for years now and he is healthy as can be. When I go to offer my Panthers a silkie and they just look at it and dont seem to interested I cut back their portions for 2 days and they go nuts when they see the silkie the next time around. Kammerflage said that over feeding creates them to be not interested in the food and they get lazy. I would go along the lines of the aforementioned you found about feeding them more some days and less others as this best simulated the wild. They wont have a steady supply of food in the wild every day and when they do find it they gorge. This is their rationale for feeding their adults 10 crickets on a every other day basis. I dont think what oyu are doing is wrong but at a young age I would not be consistently feeding him 10 crickets a day. Their growth is not what it was at a younger age and they dont require that diet any longer. The effects are not going to be sudden but more apparent latter in their life. A hungry cham in my opinion is more healthy then a well heavily feed one. Since they dont require that amount of food I dont see the oint or beeift of doing it just because. Cycling on and off at different amounts seems to be the best option in my opinion, this is what I will follow most.
     
  15. Sam_Charette

    Sam_Charette New Member

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    That's all fine and dandy to say, whitey, but can you actually quote someone on that? I think it would be highly beneficial if you could convince Kammerflage to allow you to quote their care sheet, because it sounds like it's the only one that goes into any depth in this issue, but we can't see what it says (and from the sounds of it you got one that isn't the same as the one on their web page, though I don't know why that would be).

    Everything I've read said either to use their appetite or their tail as an indicator as to how much you should feed them, and that chams tend to not overfeed. What you say makes sense, and I totally understand the reasoning, but without some documentation for us to view it's very hard for me to take it at face value.

    In light of all of the documentation I've read so far, I would consider feeding him less than he seems interested in or that would keep his tail in the proper shape would be more dangerous than feeding him based on those two identifiers. The reason for this is because although the over growing is definitely a plausible argument, it so far hasn't come with anything that says what a chameleon should be eating, so without that you risk underfeeding your cham. You may give your cham 5 a day at this point for fear of MBD, but it may really need 7 or 8 and none of us would really know. Without some documentation discussing this issue, it's very difficult to make any sort of determination as to what is the proper amount.

    So, given the documentation I've read (though I won't stop my search for more info on overfeeding :) ) I'll have to conclude, for myself at least, that feeding him what he wants is probably the best way to go for now.

    Some further quotes, though:

    From http://www.chameleonsonline.com/feeding.php

    "How much you will need to feed your chameleon will vary depending on several factors. Chameleons will usually eat much more when they are experiencing a growth period. Don't be surprised if your pet is consuming 15 or 20 large crickets a day during this time."

    This would seem to be for sub-adults, since they are still growing, and I don't think they'd be suggesting large crickets for juvies and certainly not for babies.


    From http://members.aol.com/Cool6180/veiled.html

    "When they grow up to adults, they will eat about 5-15 full grown medium to large sized insects. "

    This one reccommends that you don't let the cham gorge itself, though mine has never eaten 15 in a day. I'd also be more inclined to believe the book I have that says they keep 100 crickets in the stand-in cages at all times, since the author, apparently, has raised and bred chameleons for a long time.

    That said, here is a VERY interesting article by Chris Anderson (he's popped into this forum a couple of times, and hopefully more because he appears quite knowledgeable). The article was found at http://members.aol.com/Cool6180/veiled.html and is a Q & A type of thing.

    "Q: How much do they eat?

    We just purchased a Veil Chameleon that is now about 8 months old.

    We have seen articles about feeding them crickets, however, none of them say approximately how many per day an adult Veil Chameleon should eat. Is there a number?

    Also, are Super Worms recommended for them, as we've heard that with the hard shell, they're hard to digest?

    Thanking you in advance for your response.

    Ed & Debbie

    A. Unfortunately, there isn't an easy answer to your first question. To start off with, adult males and females need different amounts of food. An adult chameleon only needs maintenance energy resources as their growth, as adults, is greatly reduced. Furthermore, they don't require much excess as they aren't producing significant bulk increases or eggs like females. Basically, they only need enough food for them to maintain their normal activity levels without diminishing their bodily form. Females, on the other hand generally need maintenance energy resources and production energy resources as they are often producing eggs. The requirements of production needs can vary and the availability of these nutrients can alter the size of production. That is to say, the amount fed can influence the size of the clutch of eggs and at the same time, the risk to the female. Too much food can cause obesity in both males and females, potentially even other metabolic issues. In females, too much food availability can cause excessive egg production which runs a significant risk of shortening the life of the animal. Unfortunately, the amount required for maintenance can vary based on factors such as prey size, nutrient content of the feeders (largely a result of the gutload they are provided with), size of the chameleon (as this varies within the species), environmental temperature, etc. Unfortunately, there are simply too many factors to be able to give a reliable concrete number to feed.

    My recommendation would be to get an idea of how many feeders your chameleon would like to eat if you allowed him/her to eat freely. Read up on the nutrition articles in the back issues of the E-Zine so you understand the nutritional requirements of them and then try to manage the intake so that over time, an animal of healthy weight and build remains fairly consistent or in the case of females, isn't producing clutches of dangerous sizes. If you purchase a scale to keep track of weight, you will be able to monitor these changes and react accordingly as subtle, continuous changes over time can be hard to notice in the absence of numerical data. I've found scales to be invaluable in learning about my chameleons' growth and needs and would encourage all readers to invest in one and monitor their animals.

    Moving on to your next question, I'll start by giving out the usual commentary on variation in a chameleon's diet. Varying the feeders available to captive chameleons is extremely important. Some feeders are healthier than others and as a result, should be offered more freely than others. Varying the diet and gutloading the feeders appropriately combined are very useful in providing a good assortment of nutrients to your animal(s). While I don't list superworms among my favorite feeders or one that I would consider extremely nutritious (I tend to hold that spot for feeders like silkworms, roaches, crickets, etc.), they are often greatly enjoyed by chameleons and are much better feeders than mealworms. A major difference between superworms and mealworms is relative body size to the amount of chiton present. As size increases, volume increases faster than surface area. The surface area is the highest concentration of chiton in mealworms and superworms and as a result, the larger superworms have more nutrition to them with relatively less chiton which is hard to digest. As a result, I'd say that superworms are a far superior feeder to mealworms but shouldn't be offered with the same regularity as other feeders like roaches, silkworms or crickets. "


    So basically, as we all thought, it's not really a simple "how many do you feed" (which would explain why there are so many care sheets out there which do not tell you how much to feed them :) ). Chris mentions MBD as a potential here as well, but more importantly introduces the notion that too much food for a female can make her produce too many eggs. Of course he also mentions obesity, but we all knew that one, right? :)

    What Chris suggests is that for an adult (as that seems to be what he's referring to) you watch what the chameleon eats more than a static number. If your chameleon needs a certain amount of protein, for instance, then you should be sure that the number and type of insects you are providing give them that much protein (you can't be exact, of course).

    He also suggests that when an adult you feed your animal such that it retains its weight, and the scale is a great way to determine that. If you go by the tail, then you may not notice until it's too fat, whereas with a scale you can keep better track.

    In looking through the the back issues and articles on his site, I came across this: http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/sept...on_sept_02.html

    It shows the nutritional value of many insects and what you can do with it. It also says that a 50 gram chameleon needs 3.4 calories per day, but doesn't go into any more details.



    So, what does this all mean? Well, it seems as though most people get by with letting the chameleon eat what it wants, as long as the tail doesn't get rounded. Chris offered a better alternative to the tail in using a scale, but basically says that you should feed them to keep them at the same weight (for adults, of course). If you really want to provide an optimum diet, however, I think we all need to do a little more research. You'll need to know how much of what your chameleon needs, and calculate it based on the nutritional value of your insects. We've also learned that at least two sources (Chris Anderson and Whitey's Kammerflage care sheet) mention MBD as a possibility of overfeeding, but neither go into detail about how this could happen, nor how much of a risk overfeeding is. I suspect this is because it also depends on what you are feeding, and not just by how much you are going over.

    Anyone feel like a trip to the library? :D
     
  16. whitey4311

    whitey4311 Member

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    Dont worry about documetnation manh, everyone you ask will tell you somethign different and this is the frustrating part. Do what works for you and unless you are careless it is not a big issue. More important issues are your set up, lighting, supps, water ect. You have all that down cold now and have done great research and improvements from what I have been reading from you.
    FYI this am I tried to offer a silkie to my Nose Be and he ignored it, so guessw what only 2 crickets this AM and maybe later I will try the silkie and if still nothign then tomorrow he will surely be ready to eat. I just wouldnt be putting 100's of bugs in the cage as one of those articles you posted suggsted. Watch their behaviour and that will lead you down the correct path. No one can tell you better than you can can personally observe first hand. It is all based on their behaviour. One day of a food shortage or too much food isnt going to hurt them . In the long run I wouldnt suggest feeding all they can eat daily and merely look at their tail to decide when to cut back. Sounds like a backasswards approach to me. Through him some food to keep him nutriented but yearning for more the next day and on some days when you notice he is shedding more often he must be growing more and increase their intake. Persoanlyl I would look at shedding ant not tail girth. A shed is a 100% assurance that they just hit a growth period and will want to eat more. When it has been 2 months and no shed then why over feed them? My veild might shed in patches every 5 months or so since he is 5 yrs old now. He gets a daily diet of a few worms and 4 crickets or so. Some days no crickets and just 2 big worms.
     
  17. MintyHippo

    MintyHippo Member

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    what about FISH he's almost about 5'' long he's over a month arent they so post to grow 50 percent and how many should he eat a day and yesterday we dropped 10 crix in now there's only 2 left?
     
  18. whitey4311

    whitey4311 Member

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    At their young ages feed them liberally but at about 5 months and on I would cut back a bit. Basically feed them according to their growth patterns. My Sambava sheds about 1 time a month so e is still growing fast. He gets about 4 crickets and 2-3 silkies a day. The Nose Be is about 7-8 months old and yesterday he didnt want to eat, he had 1-2 silkies and no crickets. Today he his appetite was up and he took 2 crix and 1 silkie and left the 2 silkie alone so far. The point is to not just bombard the cage with insects but to watch behaviour and go from there. SO for me since the Nose Be still is lazy with his food and let the other silkie walk off that is all he will have for today. Tomorrow maybe he will be more hungry.
     
  19. Sam_Charette

    Sam_Charette New Member

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    I must disagree about ignoring documentation. I think the only thing we have is documentation. None of us are experts, and the only thing we have to go on is documentation and observation, but our observation is only based on a single (or small number) of animals, but those who write the documentation (especially those like Chris Anderson) have a much deeper understanding of chameleons and their needs than we do.

    And since most of the docs say that using the tail as a guide is a good idea, I'm thinking it's a good idea :(

    Of course, your last post describes you as feeding as much as the chameleon as it wants for the past two days, anyway. *grins and pokes* :D
     
  20. whitey4311

    whitey4311 Member

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    Well now all you have to do is choose which documetation you "Think" is best. It is very frustrating trying to figure out which method or which research project is correct and why it is better or worse than another. There is no perfect way to care for chams and you need to make your own choices. I have read tons over the years and asked many questions from breaders ect to formulate my own methods. You will do the same and I am sure you will be successful.

    And yes I did offer him what he would eat but it wasnt 10 crickets and 5 other bugs ect. All chams are different from one another and all have different personalities so be sure you arent over feeding a cham that will be too fat. ie being sure the tail isnt too fat. I would look into that more since at that point I think it may be more detrimental to cut portions on an already too over weight cham. I never had to look at a tail on any of my chams for being too fat ect and they are doing fine.
     
  21. Sam_Charette

    Sam_Charette New Member

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    Oh yeah, it's never easy to determine what documentation is "correct".

    What I tend to do is:

    1) Take the word of those who've been doing it for years ahead of others. My books and Chris Anderson would be examples of this. If you can keep the animals thriving for years, and with many different animals (i.e. keeping one cham for 10 years doesn't really make you a veteran) then you probably have a clue and should have your advice heeded.

    2) Pay special attention to anyone who goes into specific scientific information (again, Chris Anderson). If you can give me statistics or nutritional values, chances are you've done your homework.

    3) When I read many different sources telling me the same thing, particularly if any of the sources are also in #1 or #2 I tend to accept it as good info.

    In this particular example, I definitely have #3, #1 and, to a lesser degree, #2 (Chris mentions MBD, but doesn't go into detail). I feel fairly confidant in my documentation on this particular instance, at this particular time (new studies on various things are always being done, so new information could always come forth).

    I must say, though, I really think you have it backwords on that. It's less detrimental, in my mind, to cut portions on an overweight cham than it is to give a healthy cham whatever they want as long as they don't get fat. You see, if they are eating a fair amount, but not becoming fat then (all things being equal) they are healthy with that food intake. If they have become fat by that intake, then keeping the intake the same will not help your cham any. They will, at the least, remain as fat if not get more fat (since to get fat you must be taking in more than you expend in activity, and if they got fat on their intake vs activity, then logically they would continue to get fatER on the same intake/activity).

    No two chams are the same, for sure, and some will eat more than others. Some will eat more during certain periods of the year, too. All I'm saying is that considering that all of the documentation pretty much agrees on this, then using the tail and appetite as a measuring stick for how much to feed your cham is better than not using any measuring stick at all. You can't honestly say that you should feed your cham, say, 5 crickets a day when you have no method for determining if that's enough. Just saying that they shouldn't eat more than that doesn't make it so, know what I mean?

    I do think that MBD should be something to think about, though, and in order to make sure that your cham isn't getting too much calcium (which is how they'd get MBD from overeating while adults, I would guess) you should find out how much calcium your cham needs for their weight, find out how much they want to eat, and make sure you feed them insects/suppliments that will bring their daily intake (on average) to that level, for that amount of food. The same should be said for chaloric intake, as well as any other nutrients/vitamins that the cham needs.

    So, in summary, if you have the time/inclination (which is great) then you should design your cham's diet so that it's eating what it needs to maintain its weight, but failing that then watching your cham's weight (via a scale, or by the tail) and appetite is probably the best way to determine how much to feed your cham. It's a much better yard stick than feeding less because you don't think they need that much, IMO.
     
  22. LadyCham

    LadyCham New Member

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    Just a quick observation: In Chris Andersons artical he never said over eating could cause MBD. He stated that it could cause metabolic issues which could simply mean unhealthy changes in the chams body. Probably similar to the changes that occur in over weight human beings as well as any other fat animal.
     
  23. GeckoKing_57

    GeckoKing_57 New Member

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    Ok, all in all Chams all have healthy appetites. The more natural environment the cham has the more willing they will be to eat because they will be more compfy. As far as overfeeding is concerned, There isnt really and bad outcome because you cant really overfeed a cham. Once you notice that your cham isnt taking food as fast as it did when you started feeding it, it's time to stop feeding him. Granted some people dont know that and thats fine too because most lizards know when they are full and some wont eat the next day due to eating alot the night before. So Nomad the answer to your question is basically this.... Feed your Cham whatever he will eat as long as he will eat. Once he slows down his intake he should be done for the night. Give him about 2 day to chill at start all over.
     
  24. Sam_Charette

    Sam_Charette New Member

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    Hmm... You are quite right. My bad on that one.
     
  25. whitey4311

    whitey4311 Member

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    Metabolic issues and Metabolic Bone Disease I would say are the same thing. The over eating or lack of eating will cause MBD and they term is used to describe both. Over eating is not a good thing and this was my entire point on simply watching for fat tail. Sure you may catch the problem but what damage has been done?
    Again I do not think that any amount of documentation will make you feel better since they all refute one another. Be smart use your noodle and I am sure your cham will thrive. If he is in his juvinile years I am sure you can say he will do just fine. Its the younger years we worry about.
    Just a not after the last 2 days of fussy eating beahviour from my nose be i cut his portions and today he ate all 3 full size crickets and I feed him 2 med size silkies and placed 2 other silkies in the cage. I am sure he ate it all and would want to eat more but I dont let him. Slow growth is better than rapid growth since it will lead to MBD or "Metabolic" issues. Just be careful and take preventitive steps instead of 1st degree intervention steps.
     

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