Preventative steps mean nothing unless you can accurately identify not only what you're preventing, but how, and that's the point. How do you know exactly how much your chameleon needs? How can you know? "Metabolic issues" doesn't necessarily mean MBD. Without asking the author what he meant, we cannot make that assumption. The documentation, thus far, is all saying the same thing. It's not refuting one another over this. Stop saying that it is As for the fat tail, just because he's fat doesn't mean that he's got MBD. You're equating two possibilities to a sure thing. Granted, over eating is not a good thing. You're certainly right on that. But just as you say neither is under eating, and you're suggesting that you know better than your chameleon about how much it should eat, but I don't see how that could be. Assuming your chameleon isn't getting fat, how can you really tell? (and if your cham is getting fat, then the tail is a very common identifier of that, though a scale would be better to catch things faster). What guidelines other than that which most of the documentation seems to agree upon can you offer us? You say that it's different for all chams, and you just have to work it out with them, but how do you determine if what you are doing is good for the chameleon you have? Help me out here, because you've kept your chameleons for a while now (as far as I understand) and you've kept them healthy, but the only thing I've read is something that you're saying isn't a good way to do it, so how do you do it?
I think you are more correct, and to end all of this, when you said there is no way to know. There really isnt, since there is no control study that can take into account all the factors and compare them to a larger population. Like I said just do what you feel is right and that is about all you can. I dont think there is a number of crix or silkies or ect and to be the MOST accurate then you would have to feed them by total grams of food per day. That is just ridicoulous to do and not an option. At best if you did everything correct for that cham, which you couldnt, it might live at most 6 more months but how would you ever know the difference. The way that I persoanlly do it is as I have described. I never offer them a hand full of insects and let them eat what they want then remove the rest. I start them off as babies on a liberal amount and then taper it down as time moves on. As they slow down in their growth they do not need as much food per day.(take into consideration size of insects offered at youth and adult, larger insects equals more food) Even when I only offer 4 crix and 2-3 silkies a day the older panther will have fussy days and eat only 1 silkie and nothing else that day. So then I try to offer the usual amount as always the followign day and if he wont have it then he goes another day on 1 silkie until about the 3rd day when he is ready to eat like normal again. Now my younger panther will eat anything infront of him and that is where problems will arise. For one if you dust that is a lot of dusted crix unless you dust only half them, but this is easily controllable. Any way we can go on for ever but since I dont have documentation or resources to affirm what I do then your not going to follow my routine which is fine. My way insnt the "correct" way. Ask Chris if you can find him or email him and I think you will be more happy. He has alot of good info but I dont agree with it all either. He doesnt care for my UVB lighting methods but again that is because there isnt any research on them yet since it is new technology. On this eating issue i do think he would know more though. I am merely saying what I do and why but not based on a single book from my shelf. I have multiple sources over the years I have read and I have at one point or another come across all of the points you made. From those and talking to breaders I follow more closely what Kammerflage creations suggests. Cant tell you why but someone that does it for a buisness for several years and turns out chams as nice as my sambava knows a thing or two. I guess I base my methods off of experience and you like more research, though some where along the path the 2 have crossed I am sure.
PS I think you should spend more time enjoying your cham and less worrying so much. On my first which is my Vield i must have changed several set ups during the course of his life and crossed my fingers that he would be healthy. I bought several supplements, I tried several gut loads, water methods, lighting, cages, plants ect. Now that he is old and healthy I am confident in my ability to have more chams so I recently bought 2 panthers and am less stressed and know what to do from the get go. You wont do it all right or buy all you need the first time. You will buy stuff and later realize its no good and waste money, it happens. I got over buying one cage for the rest of his life and realize you have to change things as you learn more. Live and learn and enjoy your pet, if it all works out for you in the end and you have spent time learning then step it up to some more exotic chams in the future. That is the fun part and I am sure you have already considered some panthers for future purchase. You sound like I did 4 years ago and that is good since it shows you are willing to learn and adapt to change for the better of your cham. Just a little FYI my buddy and I bought our veilds from the same cluster at the same time and set them up very differently from the start. I tried to tell him that I have been reading and studying and what we are doing is not right and we shoud change our set ups. He didnt ,and kept his the way it was and 5 months later he had a dead cham. He is still a little upset that mine is thriving many years later since you can pretty much rule out a defective cham at this point. The moral of the story is that he was not open for changes and didnt look into possibilities of changing his set up, if he infact needed to. You are just like me in this sense and that rocks, study on and have fun with it. I have OCD and it almost sounds like you do to, lol. Dont trip and enjoy your pet it will live long and you will make sure of that, I can tell.
Well you can't rule out a "defective" cham. It's not likely that his was, mind you, but there's always the possibility I never said I wouldn't try your method. I just don't understand your method. Given the tail/weight gain/appetite, well those are markers. They identify if you're giving too much. Your method is different. It sounds like you aren't using any identifiers, so it confuses me as to how you know you are feeding them enough. My concern would be that though I would think I was feeding him enough, because I have no stick to measure by, I would be feeding him less than enough. The reason why I'm not trying your method, quite simply, is because it seems to give you no guage with which to tell how you are doing. That's great if you have experience and all, but not so great if, like me, you're relatively new to the hobby. If I ignored the tail, for instance, I could be feeding him too little, because I don't really know how much is good, and he'd die. If I pay attention to the tail, though, I can tell if he's getting too little or too much, you know? And I'm spending plenty of time enjoying my cham. Given that it's mostly a "look but don't touch" kind of animal (and mine's kinda bitey ) I have plenty of time to research at night, not to mention on break/lunch And yeah, I do like research, because research often comes from those who've kept the animals for a long time. I don't discount advice from experienced owners when it comes, but I always put it in with the entire collection of information as described in my previous post And sorry, no OCD. I just like to be well informed about everything I do, and enjoy learning. I'm really too lazy for OCD
I have heard the best way to monitor your cham, if this is what you would like to do, is to get a scale. Their body weight and blood tests are the only true method to prrove good health and regimen. I have never done this but if you realyl want to go about it this way then by all means it is the truely fail safe method. Again I really think you should chill and enjoy your pet, it is not as involoved as you make it sound and I hope newbies arent scared off by all this. As humans I doubt you go for routine blood tests and have a perfect body fat percentage so I am not sure why you would be so caught up in this topic. Your lighting, water, and supplements are most important and you would realyl have to deviate from what is considered a good diet to harm your cham. Its common sense and in my opinion you are digging deeper than you need to, hence the reason why there is little info on the subject as compared to the aforementioned topics I listed.
No, actually there is little info on this subject because it's all very dependant on too many circumstances, like most experts will tell you. That's also why they tell you to use the base of the tail. If you've been reading, I've also mentioned on more than one occasion that a scale is better, if you can do that. And again, I am enjoying my pet, but I have free time on my hands so why NOT look into stuff like this? And no, I don't go for routine blood tests, and no, I wouldn't suggest that for a hobbyist, and once again you seem to be ignoring the question. Basically, what I'm getting out of you is: "I don't think that checking the base of the tail is a good way to determine how much to feed your cham, because by then it might be too late. I don't actually have a method myself, though, I just guess, and that's better". Is this actually what you're saying? That's pretty much what it sounds like. Look, whitey, you're the one who warned against overfeeding because of MBD even though you offer no evidence (can you even quote that care sheet you were given?), and you are also the one who can't seem to give an idea as to what constitutes "over feeding". You also make a point to say that you don't think that the methods outlined by professionals are a good measure of when you're feeding too much, yet you can't seem to give any alternative. If anyone is going to scare off newbies here, it'd be you. You tell them "Be careful not to overfeed because if you do they could get one of the worst and least treatable diseases they can, but I'm not going to tell you how you can tell if you're overfeeding, and that stuff Sam says is no good. How is that helpful? We've now told newbies that no matter what they do, they're either doing something that someone who keeps chams thinks is a bad idea, or their flying blind and could potentiall kill their cham as a result. If you have a better system for understanding how much your chams need, then great. Please outline it here. If not, then I would appreciate if you wouldn't deride my attempts at creating as healthy an environment as I can for my pet by saying that I need to "chill out" and trying to denounce the only methods that we have so far found supporting documentation for. All I'm saying is that, for the average hobbyist, using the chameleon's appetite and the base of the tail is a decent way of feeding your chameleon a healthy amount. You're the one who contradicts it without giving us an alternative method, and so you are are confusing people (such as myself ^_^ ) and are making it more difficult for newbies to understand how they must feed their animal.
Dude you have gone way over board on this topic. Its over with, good luck. So let me get this straight, you must measure the base of the tail and particular girths must translate to something. So please tell me what each measurement means? Or are you just "flying blind" and guessing what looks correect? This is not as involved as yo umake it. DO oyu realyl think they eat handfulls of crix in the wild until they know their tail os too fat and then cut their own diet? Seriously man you are the only person I have ever read freak out about this topic. Why quote the sheet, it specifically states over feeding causes MBD and that is the real concern at younger ages. I have posted what it says in my own words over and over on how many crix ant what ages but here you go. Look at the tail if you wish but you honeslty tell me what it all means. And merely looking and making a bias observation means nothing unitl you make a non refutable measurement which is just redicoulous. Here you go: Babies: Baby chameleons should be fed 6-7 days a week. From the age of 0-4 months, we feed our offspring liberally. Babies will often eat 8-12 crickets a day when the crickets are 7-14 days old (small 1/8 - 1/4" size). In addition to crickets, two of their favorite foods at this stage of life are flightless fruit flies and domestic houseflies. Juveniles: Once the offspring reach 5-12 months of age (juvenile, young adult size), we slow down their food intake and begin to grow them at a slower pace. By now they are on a 3-4 week cricket (1/2 - 3/4" size) and we allow 5-6 crickets per feeding as opposed to the 8-12 they were receiving as small babies. The very real risk of overfeeding during this life stage is a high potential for MBD (metabolic bone disease) by misjudging the calcium ratios to food intake. It's too difficult to manage proper supplementation when offering large volumes of food. By growing your chameleon slowly and steadily through this period of their life, you are much more likely to provide them with strong, dense bones as opposed to weak, brittle bones from accelerated growth rates the chameleons can't keep up with. Adult Males: From 13-18 months, we feed our adult males on an "every other day" basis. When we feed crickets, they are given approx. 10 per feeding. At this stage of life, they are no longer experiencing rapid growth and don't require food on a daily basis. Adult Females: For mature and actively breeding females, we maintain a daily feeding schedule due to the high demands associated with during egg production. For non-breeding females, we feed on an every other day basis just as we do with the males. Taken from Kammerfalage creations which they send to each buyer after a purchase to aid in continued health. Thank you Kammers for beign so professional and caring for your animals after the purchase. So now SAM tell me who is correct? Nobody is since all methods are unique to experience and little research secondary to impossible quality control. Sorry dude but I posted what you wanted and I am done on this topic. It seems to be getting beat to death and with no good points made by either of us. I dont know more than others but I can assure you Kammers know enough for me to follow their routine and advice.
lol, you guys just typed a book.. my advice is to do what you think is best for your pet. No one can tell you exactly how to do it. I generally monitor the color of my animals and feeding/pooping habits.If they look nice n bright and eat and **** alot then I'm happy
Whitey... THANK YOU Finally you offer the actual information you've been eluding to all this time. You don't really get it, though. Lots of people, though notibly not yourself, are interested in the nutrition of their animals to the point that they want to know these things, rather than taking a stab at it. Obviously, you aren't just taking a stab at it, as you have someone telling you some general numbers. That's all I wanted to hear from you. You always said "feed them less" but never how much, nor what problem with MBD there is (I should note that the documentation you've finally quoted states not that overfeeding leads to MBD, but that you may be giving a calcium content that is too high for the animal, though I would surmise if you payed closer attention to the feeders and feeder food you may not have this problem). Geez, it's like you want to give people advice, but as soon as anyone asks you to explain what you mean it's like pulling teeth! Now, as for the tail, there is no measurement. The shape should be leafy, so a point at either end and a bulge in the middle. If you can see bones, well they're too thin. If you see a round tail, they're too fat. I never said it was an exact science, but rather that using it is better than having nothing to go on (which is what you were giving us before). This is a method that seems rather widely used, though as Chris points out in his article a scale is a better method (you can catch problems faster). As for the chameleon knowing how big it's tail is in order to determine if it's fat, well I'm sure even you know how proposterous that is, but like I've mentioned many times from my research it would seem as though chameleons don't tend to overeat. Of course if you really want to make up rediculous examples in order to try to make me look stupid, by all means do so. It doesn't change the fact that you're not paying total attention to the discussion All I ever asked from you in this thread is to explain yourself. I have, many times, but you just said "I don't think that's a good idea" without providing anything else except to say what you do works (though you were never clear on that either). If you want to be helpful, as I'm quite sure you can be, you'd be better off giving us more information than to leave us in the dark like you did until now. If all you're going to do is say "that sucks" in polite terms and "my way is good" without describing exactly what that is, then we'd all be better off if you didn't participate in the discussion. I mean, let's face it, you obviously don't want to be a part of the discussion. You've told me that on many occasions (telling me to chill out, saying I'm freaking out over it, neither of which is applicable). If that's the case, then leave. Let those interested in discussing it discuss it. If you want to participate, though, and I for one would rather you did, then be prepared to explain what you mean. To do otherwise only promotes confusion among newer people. Nomad, what's best for the pet is exactly what we're talking about here. You're right, no one can tell you exactly how to do it, but there are general guidelines that you can follow for the average case and that's what we're looking at here.
that it is the best and most stress free method that i have been trying to convey this entire time, well done!
