Hey guys! Been a while since I posted a thread here. I need some help and input with Sumo my beardie (who turned out to be a girl btw). I've contacted a vet and will be going there on friday, although they are not reptile vets so I'm a bit worried they won't be able to help me. The closest reptile vet is about 5-6 hour carride and I don't own a car and live in a new city so I don't know anyone with a car here. I'm worried to death about her So, the problem. I noticed this morning when she was going to eat "breakfast-salad" that she walked funny, and lunged at the salad but missed all the time. I took her out and let her walk on the floor and she clearly had problems walking. I picked her up and examined her entire body and is obviously not in any pain at all and nothing seems broken, infected or swollen. She is pooping, drinking, sleeping and atleast trying to eat as usual. Its hard to explain what her "walking" looks like so I arranged a video by luring her with the cricket-tongs. Please have a look and tell me if its something any of you recognize or atleast can see where the problem is at. She has never had any problem with this before, not even yesterday when she was walking as usual on the floor so the only thing she has done since then is sunbathe and sleep. Its not MBD. Please help if you can View My Video http://tinypic.com/r/30kgknp/5
Hm... that's not good! She looks healthy other than the "new baby fawn" legs going on... No kinks in her tail, no hump or dips in her spine... Not MBD... could she have fallen off anything in her tank?
I'm so sorry for the late response when you are dealing with such a concerning issue! I will admit I may have become slightly addicted to Skyrim and neglected the boards lately... Her walking is indeed quite odd. It seems to be concentrated in the back legs; her front legs seem to be working properly. How did your vet visit go? I know you said they are not reptile specialists. Is there any way they can consult with your former vet? This seems to be a slightly unusual circumstance that would be best dealt with by a specialist. It also seems related in nature to her previous toe problem. I know that turned out to be a fairly non-issue thing, but now I am wondering if there was more to it than previously thought. Now I have a lot of questions: Can you run us through your setup again (lights, distance from UVB, last time UVB was changed, temps, etc.)? I know you are experienced and I probably don't need to be asking for this info but it never hurts to review it. Can we get a very detailed list of everything she eats and how frequently she eats those items? I'm talking staple food items (both produce and live foods), recent treats she's had, brand of supplements being used, everything. Do you get all of your produce from the same store and if so are you positive that they do not freeze the produce at any time? What do you use to disinfect your cage? Do you spray any kind of perfumes, deodorants, or disinfectants around the cage area? Does Sumo ever go outside? Now that you know she is female, does she have a nesting site for her to lay her eggs? If I think of any more questions I will be sure to let you know. I'm interested to hear what the vet had to say.
Thanks for the responses! Here comes a loooong answer. The vet-visit went fairly well, they x-rayed her and did a full exam of the body, mouth, everything. The vet was very professional, though she said they don't get many lizards she seemed to be pretty experienced with them. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary and the x-ray turned out fine. Like I said before, she is still her old self, eating, sleeping, pooping, bright clear eyes, no problems with being handeled etc... She gave her some sort of multivitamin-cocktail-shot and sent some pain releaving/anti-inflammatorial (is that the word for it?) thingy that I feed her with a syringe once a day. The reason for those is to see if her weird movement is caused by her being in any kind of pain. We're going to do that for 7 days and keep in touch with the vet, if the situation has'nt change we're going to look into trying to take a blood sample etc... She was a bit worried it could have something to do with the nerves/brain since we cant find anything wrong with her. Time will tell I guess I also want to stress that we moved to a new city, which means new stores with new veggies and new bugs, new water in the faucets etc. (I usually dont buy bugs in pet stores but my usual provider is sick at the moment so he's not dispatching any orders) We moved here about 2 weeks ago and it was 1 week ago that she started with the symptoms. I'll try to answer your questions as well as I can! 1. She has a UVB about 30 cm from her floor area and a heat bulb for sunbathing. I change the UVB atleast once every 6 months, I think it was about 2 months since I changed it now. The temps (sorry for them being in celcius) are around 40C at the hottest and maybe 26-27 at the very coolest. The viv she is in now is unfortinatley on the smaller side (about 1m long 50cm deep), she will be getting a new big one next week or the week after that depending on the delivery. 2. She eat salad maybe 4 times a week, bugs 2 times a week, and pellets 1 time a week roughly. When it comes to salad her staple is usually romaine lettuce or sometimes ruccola or mache, with a bit of cucumber for moisture, butternut pumpkin when I have that at home, and then i supplement with different veggies. for example carrots, bell peppers, peas, corn, squash, broccoli, spinach... Never the same veggies 2 days in a row, I try to vary it as much as possible. I order bugs from a provider who sends them via mail, usually 200 at the time. He breeds them with healthy organic gutload and they are always really plump and healthy. When I get them I gutload them with a mixture of low fat dog food pellets, fish food, oat meal, calcium, and sunflower seeds. And also fresh veggies. I also order zophobas from the same provider and feeds her only the newly shed white ones. I am usually against feeding beardies "beardie-pellets" but I feed them to her when I for example won't be home for an entire day so the sallad in the cage will spoil over night, or that I cant monitor that she eats to soon before bedtime etc. The brand I feed her is Exo-Terras adult bearded dragon pellets. 3. I am shopping in the same food chain (Willy:s") but in a new town. I am pretty confident they don't freeze their veggies at all, they've got a good reputation about their fresh foods... But ofcourse, I don't know 100%. 4. I use Exo-Terras bio clean terrarium cleaner and water, I always rince everything and the cage very thoroughly before I start putting everything back in the cage. Although, I heard from my pet store that almost all brands of terrarium-cleaners have been forced to stop producing for some reason. He said it was bullshit legal reasons but I dont know, what should I clean with instead? 5.No, the terrariums are in our computer room so the only thing we do here is sit by the computers.. 6. Yeah sometimes, but I'm pretty cautius and only let her run on the floor if its just been vacuumed etc so she doesnt go eating any filth or get dirt and stuff in her vent. So if thats not the case she sits in my lap or in the sofa with us. Almost never longer than 30 min though. I always wash my hands before and after and make sure that she is not in direct or non-direct contact with chemicals for dirty stuff etc. (haha I'm such a mom..) 7. No she does not, but she's not in contact with any males at all, or any other lizards at all for that matter. Does she still need it? I've heard that they can lay unfirtilized eggs but that thats pretty rare? I hope I answered everything you needed to know. I want to say thank you again for taking the time to help me out!
O and stikypaws, no, she has nothing to fall off of in her tank. She had a low branch in her cage but from the moment she was "well" to "not so well" I'm pretty sure she didn't even touch it. I've taken it out now though so her viv is easier to get around in.
(Jeff, can you pull up some literature on this if you have any?) I will come back and look at this in more detail after dinner, but I would cut the Exo-Terra pellets from her diet completely. We recently started selling these at our store, and I took a look at the ingredients list. One of the top ingredients is dried earthworms. I have read on this forum and a few care sheets that earthworms can cause paralysis issues in bearded dragons, so for safety's sake I recommend avoiding them. I'll be back in a little bit to go over the rest. Hope all is going well!
Okay, I'm back. Very glad to hear the x-ray came out fine and she has started some anti-inflammatory meds to see if that affects the situation at all. Here's my off-the-bat reactions to some things. UVB distance and schedule sounds good assuming you are using a quality MVB. If it's a fluorescent, it should actually be a little closer. However, I understand climbing is probably difficult for her at the moment...perhaps you could construct a ramp to a raised up area so she can get a little closer? Again, that is only if it is a fluorescent UVB bulb; if it's a MVB, pretend I didn't say anything. Temperatures are also good and your tank is not "too small" by any means. (For American readers, it's the same footprint as a 40 gallon breeder, which is the generally recommended minimum size for a single adult beardie.) Of course, bigger is better, and I'm sure she'll be happy to have her new cage when it comes in. I already covered the pellet thing, but forgot to mention an alternative. I don't know if they are available in your location, but Zoo Med and Rep Cal make decent beardie pellets that can be used as a supplement. I would actually adjust the salad a little bit. Romaine should be avoided as a staple, although it is fine as an occasional mix in. Ruccola (American readers: arugula) is okay if I am remembering correctly, and I think mache (U.S.: corn salad, lamb's lettuce, field salad) seems okay though it has a high Phosphorous to Calcium ratio. (We don't really have that over here so I'm unfamiliar with it, but I found this helpful: http://foods-high-in.net/cornsalad-lambs-lettuce-raw,2073.html.) If you can find some of the greens on this list in your area, I would try to use the ones in green as your main greens, and then you can mix the arugula, mache, and romaine as supplements: http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html. Keep in mind that they may go by completely different names in your country, so it may be beneficial to look up the scientific names of ones you are unfamiliar with and see if they go by something else there. All of your mix ins are fine in moderation and it's great that you give Sumo such variety. Keep the peas, spinach, and corn to a minimum though as the first two are high in oxalates and all three have a high P :Ca ratio. Actually looking closer, most of your mix-ins are noted as having moderate oxalates, so make sure you are regularly supplementing with a Calcium powder and she has good UVB access. Or maybe switch one or two out for a different mix-in like watermelon, cherries, or another kind of squash? (I am probably being too nitpicky here to be honest...) If it's a popular chain, their standards are most likely pretty standard across the board, so if you have had good experience with them in the past, I wouldn't worry about it. =) Hmm, can you order a veterinary disinfectant like chlorhexadine that you can dilute yourself? That would be the best option. Personally I just use a kid/pet-friendly household sanitizer and make sure to rinse all surfaces off very thoroughly, then let the cage air out for an hour or two. You can use diluted bleach, but again, make sure everything is thoroughly rinsed and there are no fumes remaining when returning Sumo to the cage. Haha, I was more curious as to whether she ever went outside, as in the outdoors/nature where she might have been exposed to pesticides or fertilizers or could have possibly picked up an internal parasite. It's actually not all that rare, so I always recommend having a small nesting box available just in case your female does lay eggs. She doesn't have to ever come into contact or even view of a male to lay eggs; sometimes they just do it. Your "nesting" box doesn't have to be anything fancy. A small litterbox with screened playsand will work perfectly fine, and you can dispose of the eggs once she is done laying as they obviously will not hatch. Not providing a female with a nesting box runs you the risk of her becoming egg bound (dystocic); this is not relevent to the current health issue (You would have seen eggs in the x-ray if they were the cause of discomfort.) but it may save you some headache in the future. Aaaaannnnd, breathe. That's all I've got for you. I'm sorry if this was very rambly and incoherent...I was literally just responding as I read. I'm sorry I don't have any true answers for you, but I'm glad to hear your vet seems pretty confident with your scaly-kid. Obviously make sure you keep us updated as things change. I will keep you and Sumo in my thoughts!
Thank you food the thorough response Cammy! It shocks me that you're saying its a standard for an adult beardie, here in sweden its the "law" to have atleast a 160x70x70cm cage for your beardie or else its basically considered animal abuse. IMO those measurements are a bit on the larger side, I think that as long as the bearde can move around as usual and you can provide everything they need (hiding spot, water, food, cool spot/sunbathing spot etc) size doesnt really matter, they're just numbers. The viv I've ordered is going to be 125x60x60 cm i think. In our local pharmacy I found "VetriDerm Chlorhexidine Cleansing spray", it says its for cleaning wounds on cats, dogs and horses and is pretty mild and moisturizing but still disinfectant. Is that something I could clean the viv with? And oh sorry for being slow haha... No she is never outside, only when I carried her to the car etc in the move but then she's in a plastic viv.
Wah I feel so bad for Sumo force feeding her the medicine. She's learned now that the syringe goes in and it tastes bad so now she isn't opening her mouth on her own for it anymore like she did before. Today she bit the syringe too so the opening is all squished haha Right after she pouts and goes to sleep. I hope this experience doesnt bring any distrust to humans for her, it would be a shame since she is litteraly as tame as can be, the nicest lizard I've ever encountered!
None of the ingredients in that spray are harmful, in fact most are common antiseptics/disinfectants; the only thing is the allantoiini (U.S.: allantoin) may leave some kind of residue since it is used mostly in moisturizing products. If you are wiping the cage down with water (which should be done anyways) I would imagine this would take care of that issue though. I actually agree that a 40 gallon is on the small side for an adult beardie; my guy has a 75 gallon (about 121 x 45 x 60 cm) and he uses every inch of it. I think he would appreciate more room if I gave it to him; I like to daydream about setting up the 125 gallon we sell at work just for him, haha. 160 x 70 x 70 cm as a minimum is pretty overgenerous though! (For American readers, that's about 5 x 2.25 x 2.25 feet, over 200 gallons.) Still, at least your laws look out for animals other than just dogs and cats. Our laws tend to either completely ignore or demonize exotic pets... As for the medicine, I know it sucks, but she will get over it. It's just like giving a kid their nasty cough syrup. They'll pout for a bit, put up a fight when they know it's coming, but they'll get over it in the end. Just reward her with something she likes after you have given the medicine to her. That way she may associate the nasty medicine with a yummy treat. Sorry it took so long to type out such a short response. Google decided that it would be a good time to stop working when I needed its magical translating services to look into that spray, of course. Anyways, like I said, keep us updated on her progress!
One quick question about salads... Today I bought Endivesalad (I think its the same name in US as in Sweden) because according to http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html its a great staple. I've fed her this type of salad before many times. Although, when I look at the picture link from beautiful dragons it looks like this: http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Images/endive17.jpg but the salad called endive I bought looks like this: http://www.totalproducenordic.se/everfresh/Global/Bilder Grönsaker/Sallader/Endive 3.JPG Is it still the "right" salad? I hope so since I've fed it to her many times before...
So the vet called this morning... She had spoken to her reptile-vet-contact in Stockholm. She also could'nt figure out exactly what was wrong with sumo, she is seemingly healthy looking at the x-rays and overall health. She is pretty confident that something is up with her nervous system and/or brain. She said that technically I could do an MR to see if something looks off in the brain, but even if it did, there would be nothing to do. And also I would have to travel faaar just for the procedure. So she recomended to keep an eye on her and make sure she is eating, drinking and feeling well overall, and if she worsened I would come in again. But she said her state probably will never get better, only stay the same or get worse. Which really sucks... I hate that there is nothing we can do, but I'm glad she atleast still herself and pretty normal other than the walking part. But I cant help to think of the worst case scenarios, I don't want to feel like we have a limited time together you know
Okay, I had to look that up, but that looks like what is known here as Belgian Endive. Not exactly the same thing, but it seems like a good staple in looking at the nutritional values. It is high in phosphorous, but also high in calcium, so with supplementation that should balance out. I'm so sorry to hear that is is apparently a neurological problem however. =( I hate feeling like I have no control over a situation, especially when it involves an animal, so I know how you must feel. BUT, it is great that she is still eating and behaving normally otherwise. If she does not seem to be in any pain and is able to figure out how to get around in spite of her condition, that is the important part to focus on. Let us know how she is doing or if anything changes. Hopefully she will be able to adjust to her new state without any issues. I'll keep my fingers crossed for her!
