Hello Hello, Ah here we go on Diachu again. They never seem to stop. Reptiles have evolved perfectly fine before we got our hands on them. I do not think that "making" new morphs like that which will be vulnerable in nature is a good idea just to make money. I do not agree with alot of what they do with no UVB & high heat & temps along with the high supplementation to make up for lack of UVB light in order to cut corners. They are supposedly one of the leaders which everyone including Sandfire should start to set examples. Sadly, they all settle just to make money whether or not they exploit the dragons or not. I think it would end up being another morph that will have problems like the leucisistics do or did. Tracie
RE: Hello lmao .. we went there. ok I completley agree and I will say that if one has adeno they probably all will as from what I read they pretty much roam free so there would be no way to preven the spread further. With the 90? dragons she has I can see why she doesn't want to test thats one huge bill. but think of the spread. This poor silk back has basically been laid bare to life with no protection, it's like taking away a hedgehogs spikes, it's wrong as is the imbreeding to get it. and unfortunatly the higher the demand for it the more they will keep the line going... inbreeding to do so causing more sick beardies that we wont hear about till years later. Don't buy them, show there is no demand and they wont bother. after all its' for the money right? and the recognition of a new breed, no demand no recognition..0
RE: Hello sad to say it really has come down to money more then the well being and care for beardies :? i'm not one to bash on anyone or any new ideas but i have to agree with don't buy them. it does come down to "supply and demand" these kinda situations and incidents just baffle me with how people can be so self centered and inconsiderate towards other species and consequences of their actions. i do have to add that that is quite an odd looking "morph" (mutation) imo
Yeah it really does look bizarre. Obviously this is just my opinion but I don't even know why there would be a demand at all. I don't think I'd like picking it up to much to be honest. I just don't like it one bit in general.. and the sad thing is that its an animal that didn't have a choice at all. Paul
RE: Hello This is no different than some dog and cat breeds that inherently have major health problems due to their 'mutations'. I think my problem with this is as much how they produce these 'breeds' so quickly and reliably (i.e. massive inbreeding). IMO there is simply no justification for that and it will result in weak, sick, and short-lived animals.
I think the reason there would be demand is because people like something different and one of a kind don't they hence the 100's of morphs created all the time. But I don't think alot of people realise what it takes to make these unique morphs. otherwise they would be on the same page as us. the funny thing is with all this creating and inbreeding, they've lost the natural breeds and no country will let you take them from the wild... wise consevation on their part IMO. I'll give dachui one thing, at least she said it was a genetic mutation... but then maybe she thought it would make it sound natural lol.
Hello Hello, You guys said it all! Self centered for sure, & the poor animals had no choice. Of course, they are ALL beautiful, but I highly doubt that nature allows such mutations, so, why should we sabatoge the species for our gain? It is so not fair for them at all. It does make me sad. I am sure that it has taken a lot of time & work to get that morph, & I am sure there was inbreeding taking place. It blows my mind that they have no concern where the dragon will be in the future, how its health will hold up but I guess they think that they have no more responsibility after it leaves their hands. Basically the same type of mindset they have towards the adeno virus. I think people have forgotten why they got into breeding in the first place, & no longer share the love & passion of the dragons, but just the money. You are also right, we have exploited alot of different species & they do end up having health problems. We need to just leave nature alone, it knows better than we do. Tracie
RE: Hello The bottom line is that to properly introduce new "morphs" it takes many many years with no guarantee that it will happen. If inbreeding wasn't done I really doubt we would see something like this and that tells me ALOT. Nature works on the survival of the fittest concept. Something like this is the exact opposite of what ppl should be shooting for since it goes against the laws of nature.
too true tux. you know... of topic a bit by species lol but I still can't get over the fact that the silk moth can't fly any more! maybe one day we will learn.
ive been debating on this, but i guess ill chime in.. i know that leather backs are still fairly new, so obviously inbreeding had to occur to get this "morph", and would have to keep happening in order to produce more, and since she (the one pictured on the website) is the only grown, healthy silkback that survived, that means all of the other babies must have been pretty screwed up.. so this, i dont agree with, at all. but a genetic mutation is a genetic mutation. genetics are natural. i know that taking away a beardies spikes would definitly affect its survival, in the wild, but in captivity, what do they have to protect themselves from? people do want whats different, and this is definitly different. and different equals money. anyone who is going to pay big money for a dragon, is most likely going to take darn good care of it. and i dont see a problem with that. the one that they have pictured looks very healthy, and happy. thats the thing about captivity. you cant compare it to the wild. every one of my dragons would be just fine if they never had scales or spikes. they are not exposed to predators or anything that would harm them. and im sure that all of yours would be, excluding those of you who have rescues, and the ones who can be somewhat careless and leave the top off of the cage just begging the cat to climb in... just to add to my theory, those are usually the people that buy their dragon for way too much money or dirt cheap at the local petstore that have 30 of them in a 20 gallon tank on purple calcium sand... but if these new silkbacks were not a product of inbreeding, i would love to have one. it seems that they can live healthy and happy lives if cared for properly. and like i said, most people that would give an arm and a leg for a pet, would take care of it. and just so no one thinks that i agree with dachiu's husbandry practices, i dont. i dont agree wtih the statements about UV and i dont agree with keeping the babies on sand, and i dont agree with inbreeding, or the way that money has replaced love in their business. ethics are a big part of being successful in any business, and hopefully they will see that soon... i do though, find it hard to believe that they make a whole lot of profit.. a lot of their dragons are cheap, except the ones like the leatherbacks and silkbacks that they arent producing very much of anyway.. and we all know how much it costs to keep one dragon. they keep their dragons until they are a pretty good size, and it would cost a lot to feed a dragon for six weeks.. food, housing, electricity, etc., has got to be expensive for that many dragons.. just my two cents...
If not for the thread title and knowing this was Dachiu, I would have thought this was some new high color uro morph. It doesn't look natural. A beardie's spines are arguably it's most distinctive feature, and Dachiu has found (or stumbled upon) a way to remove it. Do peacock breeders desire chicks with no plumage? I think not. Of all the dog and cat breeds in existence today, most are the product of selective breeding over the last 600 years. I think without exception, the most "fashionable" breeds are the ones with the most health/behavioral problems. Hips, skin, respiration, aggression, whatever. These problems are the cost paid by the animals for their owners' vanity. To protest the development of beardies without beards, I propose we start calling them SHAVED DRAGONS.
I see what your saying lovemylizards and maybe they can live perfectly healthy lifes which is good if people persist with this. But surely, if your interested enough in animals and reptiles (which you would have to be to some degree to keep them) then why wouldn't want the real thing. Personally I keep reptiles because I think there amazing creatures and I'd like to care for them.And also observe them as they would occur in the wild. Theres no need to mess with nature. Maybe im missing something but I just don't see the point. But each to there own Paul
To continue the comparison to dog/cat breeding... Even breeds that in the past have not had significant health problems (i.e. German Shepards, Rotweilers, Labs, Goldens) as soon as they become 'popular' and breeders start focusing on appearance above health, behavior, etc., the overall quality of the breed goes to crap. That is exactly what will happen to Beardies if this kind of thing continues widespread. In 5-10 years they have the reputation for being difficult to keep healthy and having short lifespans. I read the rest of your post and I know this quote was made in a context, but I want to comment, because, IMO, it's a dangerous statement. Genetic mutations are natural, but genetic mutations that would obviously prevent the individual from surviving to breeding age in the wild and are produced repeatedly (especially over a relatively small number of generations) are not natural. It may be true that in the wild 1 in (some really big number) of Bearded Dragons are born as a 'Silkback', but I would guarantee you that all of them die before breeding and passing on the mutation. Unfortunately, this is not true, I'm not trying to flame you here, but I have seen too many purebred dogs that probably cost $1,000+ at shelters or being cared for improperly. In fact, judging from the responses on this forum, most people who are actually experienced at keeping reptiles would not want one of these, so that leaves the people who would buy one just because they 'look cool', and we all know how that usually ends up. I hope I didn't offend with this post but, although I am relatively new to reptiles, I have seen this for so long in dogs/cats and I really hate to see it infect reptiles as well. Shane
RE: Re: RE: italian silk back dragons? daichu is the worst line you can purchase from....dragons should be purchased fromsmall breeders that have not used lineage fromthe big names....
RE: Re: RE: italian silk back dragons? so are you all against the leatherbacks as well...? because I'm sure they would have a hard time surviving in the wild without the larger spikes... and I'm assuming that since you're against these, that you are all also against future progress with albino bearded dragons? translucents?? It's all personal preference, but if you want a true "morph" and not just a bloodline, there will be things about it that would hurt its survival rate in the wild, that's why they are the way they are in the wild... But the truth of the matter is that things just aren't the same in captivity, or at least they shouldn't be. I sure hope your beardie isn't fighting for survival every day living in your bedroom or living room. Are you all against snake morphs? Because many of them couldn't survive in the wild either (or would have a harder time with it), but tons of people keep them and you rarely see someone against it there... Now true health problems are different, but color and pattern mutations would really only hurt the camoflauge (which I probable don't need to point out how vital that is for survival)... Back on the subject here, I don't know yet how I feel about this "silkback" because as lovemylizards pointed out, there's only one. And there's probably only one for a reason...
RE: Re: RE: italian silk back dragons? well there's really 2 different sides to this picture. there's those who are looking to the future of the actual species here and those who are looking for their own personal gain or collection. yes this silkback and the leatherbacks won't be in the wild obviously but like Dracos said about a bearded dragon w/o beards basically... this morph really does mess with what a bearded dragon is held as. i have to agree, would a peacock farmer want to breed them w/o plumage??? not so much. as i've stated before it is said that the world goes round by money. i myself am one that hopes this shaved dragon doesn't get popular.
Re: RE: Re: RE: italian silk back dragons? Honestly, yeah, I am. I'd be perfectly happy if breeders stopped trying so hard on these and put more effort in sustaining normal, healthy dragons. I'm not really into those either. Or purebred dogs. I like all my animals au naturale, for the most part. The only strange "morph"-like animal in our house is the cat. He's a cornish-rex, and he was a rescue that was being kept in a small cage in a lady's garage. I'd never go out and spend $500 on a cornish-rex just because of how it looks. After a very bad experience I had with my purebred german shephard, I am no longer a fan of selective breeding at all. I wish people would stop messing around with looks and colors and just worry about the health and longevity of the species.
RE: Re: RE: italian silk back dragons? Hmm for looks, its nice, but to purposely breed this is bad. I agree with people when they say it could be shortening the life span and or making its immune system weaker. Lots of bad things can occur in breeding defects. I will be going to the hamburg show tomarrow and they will be attending. I will try and snap some pics of one of these.
Hello Hello, Oh I wish people would quit messing with genes to make things look "cool" to make themselves money. Personally, as Tux said, so true, survival of the fittest for sure. It does screw everything up. I think it is so mean. Part of what makes the bearded dragon SO endearing & noble is its' spikes, they are so georgeous, & that is the way that nature intended for them to look for defense. Leave it to Diachu to continue to mess up these beautiful creatures. Tracie
