pics of Harvey, my new veild

" let me know what you think"

YOU wanted people's opinions and they gave their [EXCELLENT] advice. not following them based on [??] hearsay is death to any animal. i take no one source as gold, but i love this forum and trust many ppl on it.
I had a cham offered to me at a herp show, but i didn't take it, thou it was half the price of my geckos. why? cause they are a lot of work and i wasn't ready for it. i have done a lot of reading on other species than i currently keep, cause i believe in learning for the sake of learning. i have been lurking all over the site and have read a lot of Chris' info. it's EXCELLENT.
as everyone has said, it's up to you. but it's only going to lead to two things. 1) you are going to spend a lot of time and money on better equipment, vet bills, meds, etc [when it all could have been avoided] and the cham may or may not live. 2) you are going to not notice, not care to admit you were wrong, spend the money, etc and the cham will die.
on the UV: i keep beardies. are you going to tell me they don't need UV either? cause i've SEEN rescue beardies/herps. you can't tell me UV bulbs don't make a difference.

*slinks out of cham forum* i'm done now.

 

Excellent post Chris!

 

ok, you know that uvb lights are good because why. you use them and you have had no problems. because someone said that they are needed so you use them. or you have done extensive research and know for a FACT that they are needed. thats like saying that i wear blue jeans to keep bears away, and since ive never seen a bear it must be working.

look, ive talked with several ppl on the subject, and have come up with my own conclusions. i really dont need your input on that matter. as far as the aquarium goes, you are all right. i do need to get something better for him. and it will be done.

now i posted a pic of my Harvey and asked everyone what they thought. i thank you for your opinions even though they went alittle deeper than i was hoping. i was just wanting to know what they thought of him and if he looked healthy.

 

LOL, that is some logic you have there. How about this... don't use a light, and your cham develops MBD or it dies because you overdose it. Is that conclusive enough? What will it take to convince you, miles of pages of expert opinions from vets and specialists and some of the most advanced hobbyists in the field? Well, miles of documentation on the benefits of UVB lighting exist. One simple search engine search, a little research on your part. Whatever.

Heika

 

I know the necessity of UVB lighting and the dangers of dietary D3 supplementation from vast research from scientists studying the nutrition of chameleons, varying UVB use in chameleons, UVB light comparisons for reptiles and the physiological need for UV lighting in reptiles. As I posted before, the following interview outlines a couple the points I've made above: http://www.chameleonnews.com/interviewfer.html That information may be very useful to you since I doubt you have access to or will make any effort to track down any of the following articles:
Ferguson, G., W. Gehrmann, T. Chen, E. Dierenfeld & M. Holick (2002): Effects of Artificial Ultraviolet Light Exposure on Reproductive Success of the Female Panther Chameleon (Furcifer pardalis) in Captivity. - Zoo Biology 21:525-537.
Lindgren, J. (2004): UV-lamps for Terrariums: Their Spectral Characteristics and Efficiency in Promoting Vitamin D3 Synthesis by UVB Irradiation. - Herpetomania 13: 3-4.
You can look at further UV information for reptiles at this site: www.uvguide.co.uk
If you actually do any research other than talk to your buddies in double wides with chams in tanks and no UV (probably the same fools trying to sell the "Get rich fast breeding Veiled Chameleons in your bathroom" on E-Bay), you'll find an extensive amount of information on the physiological importance of UV lighting in diurnal lizards, discussions on studies of implications in chamelelons and the capabilities and uses of different artificial UV lights. But keep erring on the side of ignorance. I only hope you are still posting here when your chams die or start to show signs of MBD.

Chris

 

look im not trying to be difficult, i got my info from a breeder that has kept chams for over 10 years this way. and has more gecko speicis than anyone on the planet. please just let it be. there is no reason for you to get worked up over it. if it makes you feel any better just look at it like im trying a differnt way of keeping a cham. if it works great, if not its my problem. what do you think cham owners did before there were even uv bulbs out.

 

Before UV lighting and a few other things were discovered, chameleons were considered virtually impossible to keep in captivity. Many reptiles were very problematic to keep unless you were able to keep them outdoors (with the exception of things like geckos, etc.). Chameleons only started to be kept with frequency for any period of time in the late 80s.

With regard to your friend, as I've already explained to you, geckos and most other nocternal lizards have evolved so that they do not require the UV rays like diurnal lizards.

Anyway, it is completely clear that you have absolutely no desire to set your chameleon up with its best interests in mind. The bottom line is, considering the biological responces to dietary D3 supplementation vs UV stimulated D3 synthesis, choosing to go with dietary D3 supplementation when the doses are not known, is a complete disregard to the animal's wellbeing. I think its obvious to all just how much you actually care if your cham suffers.

Happy Holidays!

Chris

 

Actually, before the lights came out, people were pretty unsuccessful at keeping chams (and many other sun loving reptiles) in captivity. Go figure. Why would you intentionally go back to substandard conditions when there is such an easy solution? Why try to fix what isn't broken?

Believe me, it isn't for your benefit that I am "getting all worked up." To me, life is a precious thing. By taking on the responsibilities of a captive animal, I am denying that animal the ability to provide for its own needs. In return for the honor of its presence in my home, I provide it with the best possible environment I can give it. It's life is in my hands. I am sorry for your cham that you don't feel that way.

Heika

 

If you really want to see the difference set up a aqarium with no uvb or anything they have posted. Then set up a screen enclosure with uvb and see what happends. I think you will notice the difference pretty quickly.

 

As for you needing uvb. Nocturnal animals do not come out of there hiding places, homes, dens etc during the day. If they do not do this there is no way for them to get the uvb from the sun thus being they dont need it. If they are active during the day (diurnal) they are out in the sun etc thus requireing uvb. Reptiles are not like mamals thus requiring different set ups. Like my dog for example. I know he dosnt need special supplements like herps do because the either get it from their food or thier body can produce it itself.most diurnal reptiles need uvb of some kind.

 

im really disapointed in the ppl on this forum. in one sence im glad that you all have this passion and voice what you believe. but it is really anoying that you keep on the same thing over and over again. apparently im not going to do anything about it, so drop it.

and chris it is apparent to me that you are just a juvinile that needs to stoop to calling names to get your point across when someone thinks different than you. i really hope you learn to outgrow your childish ways.

 

Ok this is what I have a problem with. You come on here asking of our opinions. When we tell you what we think you go off on us telling us that what we have told you is totally wrong. Why then would you even ask us of our opinionswhen you reject what we have to say. Then you say "but it is really anoying that you keep on the same thing over and over again." You are the one responding to our posts and telling us to drop it. If you dont want to provide adiquite care for your animal that is your problem and will have to deal with it. I dont like people who come on here thinking they have the best way when in fact you dont provide the basic for a complex animal like a chameleon and then ask our opinions and shoot them down because you are the gods of reptile keeping.

 

Then you shouldnt keep animals that you can not and will not take care of.

 

ok, i never asked for you opinion on the setup. i just posted a pic of harvey and asked what you though of him, not his setup. and who are you to tell me what is right and what is wrong. i never once said it was wrong to use uv nor said it was right. i just stated that i dont think it is necisary to use uv is im suplimenting D3 in his diet. i never once said that i was a god of reptiles. you are blowing the whole thing out of proportion. just go back to my first post in this thread and read it again. i never said one word about my setup in it. i chose to take the advice a guy that i trust. a guy that has more reptiles that you could name off of the top of your head. thats my choice, it has nothing to do with anyone of you.

as for the rest of you, lets hear what u use for suppliments and how often you use them and in what doses. im curious to hear what and how you are giving it. you keep saying that my cham is going to overdose on D3 if i use suppliments.

 

Ok that says all about that.

What do geckos have to do with chams. Totaly different setup and totally different needs. Get your facts straight and make coherent sense when you post. You obviously dont care so why should we care. You are not going to take care of it and it was probably an impulse buy for you. I pray to god that you will see that what you are doing is not beneifcial to the welfare your your herp. I am done argueing with you because you are wasting peoples time with this bs. Go to a different forum for chams and they will say the same thing to you.

Some people are stuborn ignorant fools that believe they can house an animal anyway they please. Read care sheets but decide not to use them because they are wrong even though the so called person has never owned one before. I would just like to say that in your argument you brng up someone who you say owns more gecko species then anyone. Last time I checked geckos were not the same as chams. They are not the same genus and specis. That whole argument makes no sense and I hope you can lern the difference between herps.

Im done with arguing with and arogant jerk.

 

Just so you dont edit your post to say you didnt say it.

 

tcr03 - I feel you are being very ignorant. Not just to the advice of people who have owned chams for a long time and also breed them for a living, but to the needs of the animal that you have chosen to 'neglect'. That is what you are doing. If there was no need for UVB lights then I clearly would not spend nealry £100 every 6 months changing my tubes so that my animals get the benefits that according to you are completely non-existent. I am a fairly new cham owner but feel I have proved the turnaround that proper care can give to a cham. My George has grown at least twice the size he was - only since he was goven proper UVB lighting and the correct setup. Please remeber that you have chosen to take this animal into your care and it is YOUR responsibility to house it correctly. What will happen when you cham gets MBD or dies - which is an inevitable outcome due to your 'friend' not using UVB lighting? will you blame someone elses advice on that? Everyone here has proven that they are knowledgable where cham husbandry is concerned and to be frank, it is people like you that cause legislations to be put in place because of bad care and sheer ignorance about the correct way to look after these beautiful creatures. And just to answer your original post, yes your cham is green and bright - is it normal to be able to see their ribcage through their skin though? George was very skinny and starved when he arrived with me yet I couldn't see his ribcage. I hope at some point you will realise the difference between the needs of an animla and the desires of the keeper. Hopefully, it will be before you have to suffer the loss of one of your pets.

 

your right, thats what i said, and thats what i ment. along with geckos he has other species. here let me take a one of his posts and let you read.

"I have been breeding panthers for over 12 years and find them as easy as veileds,you just keep them differently.In fact most people dont keep veileds correctly.They don't even know where they come from.When veileds came onto the scene they were called Yemen chameleons,im guessing because they are from Yemen,you know as in by Saudi Arabia in the the desert.Anyway,I am going to cause a fuss here but so what.I have been successfully breeding some of the rarest herps known to science for years.I do not use "full spectrum" bulbs,never have ,never will.I breed Uromastyx,Xenagama,Anolis, 30 species of Phelsuma and a number of other geckos(pristurus,Quedenfeldtia,Gonatodes,etc.) who would need full spectrum more than any chameleon on the planet.Most of the people who claim they have had success because of the bulbs have never used anything else so their experience doesn't have any real validity.The real issue with most reptiles is their supplimentation.I have never had any MBD or any other issue related to the lack of "full spectrum" lights."

 

Could I also ask TCR - at what age does your 'friend' sell his hatchlings? Or dies he keep them all so he can see the effects of no UVB source in later life? I pity the people who have bought from him and then felt bad when their animal has become sick and they think it is something they have done.

 

I called you a name? Where did I do that? Ohh, guess what, I didn't! And you sit there and tell "UltimateFX" to go back and read your post?!?! Stop trying to divert attention for your lack of interest in the wellbeing of your cham.

I like to call it a one-week expert complex. It's very common on forums. People who have never kept chameleons (or whatever other herp is in question) get one or two, read a couple outdated books/sites or talk to someone who has one under the guise of doing it for years and all of a sudden, they are experts and everyone else who has truly been doing it for years is clueless. You can usually spot these people by their outlandish comparisons to things that aren't relevant at all, their justifications along the lines of "well, Buffalo Bob down the road does it this way and he's got more experience than anyone" and finally, an inability to answer any direct question or respond to any evidence that proves them wrong beyond complains about everyone ganging up on them and calling them names-which at that point, usually hasn't even been done.


Please let us know how your cham is doing in 6-12 months, "tcr03". I hope he likes his glass oven of 112F, guesstamated supplementation doses with a lack of necessary equipment and keeper who really couldn't care less about its wellbeing.

Chris


"Some guys learn from the passed on knowledge of others. Others by observation. Then there are those that need to piss on the electric fence for themselves." - Anonymous