I think the the best way a breeder could help keep people from breeding related lines is to ask to make the information packet, and tell them which dragons that particular line of your's are not compatible with as far as the more common places to buy other dragons. I think the main problem is that people have no idea how to tell if lines are unrelated, so they figure if they purchase two dragons from different reputable breeders they're probably safe enough. Unless people do an amount of research that is generally more than what the normal person is willing to do they probably wont know the extent of the inbreeding problem that there is in the US. If they were told straight off, "You shouldn't breed this dragons with this line, and this is why... " they would be much quicker to listen, and correct their mistake, than if you just ask them not to breed the animals period. If breeders were to just start asking people to not breed their stock in general I don't think most people would listen. I think a lot of people who have just started thinking about raising dragons would honestly think they were doing it just as much to elimatinate competition. (Not that I'm saying I think that) A person who pays $250-ish+ for a dragon is just as likely thinking about using it for breeding than not. It seems to me that telling people right off the bat which ones out of a dozen, or so, more reputable breeders would be compatible with would not be that much more work. Surely they would definitly have that sort of thing "on record". I think its good to know the breeder is keeping track of their lines anyway. If they can't tell the buyer what lines their dragons are related to, chances are they don't really know if they're breeding unrelated lines either. Anyone who is just unwilling to give their dragon's basic line to a buyer period seems a bit fishy to me, honestly. I would think that the only major draw back that some breeders would see is that people looking for a breeder would be less likely to buy a dragon from them if they didn't have a choice of a reputable breeder to get a mate for it, or if they couldn't supply any records at all of its heritage. It would seem to me, though, if they are in it for the specie's benefit that couple sales wouldn't matter as much as knowing they were cutting down on genetic degeneration. I would definitly take the chance on sales to put that kind of information packet together for any future breeding projects I was a part of, because I think having that kind of information available to possible buyers would help the current situation greatly. If a person could see a run down on the genetic problems in the US, and a brief list of the close relatives to a dragons on the (or even linked to) "available" page of the breeder's site I think it would really make a difference in the amount of breeding mistakes that happen.
I got a email for a new breeder, I went and checked out their site and care info as that can usually tell you most about them. I do not know about their dragon's lines, I had never heard of them. Their care info is scary and in some cases is downright deadly, most is what I see in Pet store employees advice who are pushing products that we all know are risky for young dragons. But here is another site advocating it. too But its the opening paragraph on the home page that has become so famaliar! freewebs.com/dillonsdragons
That whole site is pretty disheartening. It sounds like they mean well, but are so far off even on basic husbandry that it is scary. That sad part is that they will pass this info on to other people who are looking for answers and will accept it as truth. People do not realize what a big responsibility breeding bearded dragons is. Their future depends on the people breeding choosing healthy unrelated lines. Wendy
The dillons dragon people even tell you that they are guessing at the birthdates because they bought their breeders at petsmart. And their caresheet was less accurate than one you would get from some pimply, half stoned 16 yr old kid working at the local petstore. As for dragons having no color, most pet store dragons are the nomal "morph". I have a subadult I got from rescue whose relaxed color is a flat, grayish white and whose stressed colors are black. Most wild beardies are shades of gray from the pictures I have seen. Colors only seem to come from breeders. I could care less what color my dragons are. I have a sandfire and a red gold because I wanted to buy from a breeder but they arent particularly pretty. The most colorful one is the one that eats the worst. I keep my BDs as pets only and I wish I could find a breeder that just sold the "natural" beardie and not a morph, whether size or color. While I know that careful breeders do their best to avoid genetic disorders by carecully checking all the lineages I feel that breeding for color always has a risk of genetic problems and personally I dont think a pretty color out weighs the risk to the species. Now I know I definetly am the minority here but its JMO.
It makes you wonder how some one who hasmajor mistakes included in every section of their care sheet could have actually kept bearded dragons alive for four years. This is kind of pertaining to the pet shop thing Demasoni was talking about, but I think its kind of odd how you get people throwing all sorts of names around for dragon morphs. I mean, its really confusing with dragons! With most other reptiles its basicly the same name for each morph, as far as I've seen, but with beardies it seems like most breeders just picks whatever they want to call their dragons, and thats what morph they are. Nothing really seems to have a name that matters. I mean, I've seen yellow dragons being called Sunburst, Citrus, Lemon Fire, and several other names. They all look the same, none of them really look like a different morph to me, so whats the point? It seems like it would have been so much easier if everyone would have just stuck with the "original" name. I mean, there aren't 5 names for Okeetee Corns, Piebald Ball Pythons, or Blizzard Leos. Why are there with dragons? Even more confusing, some don't even get morph names, just something x something x something x something. Possibly more, or less, somethings. It all just seems like kind of a sloppy process. I know its far to late in the day to change it now, though.
Personally, I think a person should have something thats really different before they call it their own line. Just because a breeder has a clutch of dragons that is two shades different than the original parents they bought doesn't make it new, in my opinion. If someone were to come out with say, a bright, obvious, green, or a jet black line of dragons (Oh, how I wish some one would breed a jet black dragon. lol) I would see where they would want to name them, and take credit for them. Sandfire, by the way, is probably the most over used morph name there is. Every time I go to a pet store I see "Sandfire" dragons. Most of them are just regular looking babies. Some of them a tiny bit of orange, or red. I have yet to see any that look like the actual morph. I think one thing that has to do with why no one seems to care that much about getting morphs wrong is that, as far as breeders go, not many morphs are worth a significant amount more than any other.
Everyone has bloated ego's to be another Sandfire Ranch so thats why they are making up those names on anything they produce. Which does not make a lot of sense to me, for reason I know about their lines. Do what me and most people do... ignore them. Names that are attached to a certain line makes sense and thats what Sandfire originally did. Sandfire is NOT a color, its a breeding line. Sadly probably at least 80% of the dragons in the US today have sandfire line stock in them as they do also sell them off to wholesalers and pet stores in mass (personally I think they are the puppy mill of bearded dragons)... so anyone wanting to breed in the future has to be real careful of anything called Sandfire or Sandfire in it. The something X something I think is okay as it tells you parentage.. like Flame X Zilla/goldfroggy tells you the baby comes from a dragon named Flame owned by Chris Allen and Godzilla and Goldfroggy owned by Jeff ... In this case, that cross is the grandparents now, so buying that baby you would know 3 of the past generations..... The Grandparents, the parents (the breeders you are buying from's dragons), your baby and actually since everyone knows where Flame came from, you would know 4 generations.... those are not morphs, those are breeding lines.... and very helpful in tracing parentage
Not all of the something x somethings are names, though. Some of them are just like Hypo Red x German Giant x Sandfire x Red Gold, for example, or citrus x snow. Lots of people breed those colors, so who knows what breeder they came from by just reading that. If they are actual names of "famous" dragons then, I agree, its not a bad thing. That gives you a really good idea of their back ground. I mean the ones that just name off seemingly random "morph" names. Especially when most "morph" names are fabricated anyway. In pet stores around here the animal usually doesn't even look like one of the names listed.
While I understand what you are saying, I also think that there has to be a way to let people know what color lines the dragons came from. For example, I have a female who is a yellow x leucistic and a male I plan on breeding her with that is a yellow x yellow/orange. These are the colors of their parents and tell a prospective buyer what colors were crossed to produce them. I also have bloodline information. You have to have some type of description for the dragons. I also agree with you that people claiming morph lines as their own is out of hand. But I also think there has to be some identifying factor. Telling a dragon's parents cross does that. I also think that breeders need to have the essential bloodline information. You are asking lots of great questions and it sounds like you are on the right track. Don't worry about the breeders not having dragons, they will have more clutches hatching and you should not have a problem finding quality dragons. Good luck on your bearded dragon venture. Wendy
Well, I'm not really talking so much about the breeders who do as you said, and supply bloodline information. Pictures of the dragons parents, and the dragons themselves are always good too. The thing that bothers me are the people that I've seen that sell dragons on something x something descriptions alone. I think I wasn't clear on that. It doesn't bother me when a breeder uses those terms, as it is useful, its just not really enough when you're trying to figure out if the prospective dragon is from good stock, or not. A local pet shop here was selling Crawley Red x Citrus dragons not long ago. (Keep in mind they wanted $300 for each one.) They were light, sort of yellow-tan, some had orange marks, some had brighter yellow yellow. I wasn't really interested in them, because they were fairly sickly, and were not in the proper enclosure. I decided to ask about them anyway, though, because I was interested in them and wanted to point out the flaws in their care. (Of course they didn't listen to the care tips.) Anyway, I asked them where they had got the dragons, and all they told me was "a breeder". I asked them the name, and they said they didn't have it on record. How can they not have on record what breeder they buy their animals from? Thats just rediculous. For $300 they should know they are selling close to the best dragons on the market. I think in this case its just annoying to have them calle Crawley Red x Citrus. It doesn't really describe them, and you can't see any parent pictures to confirm they actually were. They looked like normal dragons that probably had a Citrus thrown in along the way. I couldn't really see much Crawley Red in them. The marks on them were all more Citrus like. The "orange" was that was on a couple very light. Honestly, if they hadn't been listed as being a "morph" I don't think I would have thought they were anything but normal dragons. You really had to look for the yellow in them, if I wasn't looking for it I would have missed it. I really think who ever was breeding these dragons lied about what they were. I don't see how a Crawley Red and Citrus dragon could have had these offspring. Maybe they were both extremely poor quality, I guess. It seems just as likely to me, though, that the breeder just figured they could tell the pet store a couple of morph names and they wouldn't know the difference. After that whenever a dragon is a something x something with no pictures of the dragons, or parents, it just makes me really suspicious. I think its really just because I've had a lot of bad experiences with dragons here in pet shops, and at flea markets, and there are several bad sites selling dragons. It isn't really about the more reputable breeders who show pictures, and are willing to give back ground info.
I hate people. However I love liza's use of her extensive vocabulary, I had to pull out the dictionary... I have thought about breeding beardies, but then I realized that unless you are willing to put in some serious time and money and more time and more money and well you know, your going to be part of the problem. And I just want to expirience breeding and raising up some hatchlings, but my silly desire is not worth adding to the mess that already exists. I know that I could do it, and I know I would enjoy it, but then what, I cant keep 30+ bearded dragons, and honestly seeing people's posts on the many forums I go to occaisonally(this is my fav) I sort of loose any desire I ever had to do it, people have absolutly no idea how to provide proper husbandry for the animals they buy... and its great that they come to these sites and people like kephy and cheri and everyone can help them, but I'm almost sure that they are a minority, most people dont give a ****... And then we have the effing pet stores... I wrote a letter with a friend of mine to a local chain pet store and the vice president of the company called me up and we had a meeting and I told him all about why you really should not keep adult bearded dragons in shoe box sized sterlite containers with no lighting.. and how nile monitors do not belong in pet stores and, I was civil and he agreed to change the bearded dragons substrate to shelf liner from pine shavings and see how it went, from that expirience I gained some very depressing insight into the reptile industry.. anyways then we have the "rescuers"...These people drive me nuts they see a sick animal in a pet store and buy it... I saw a tiny baby bearded dragon in a horribel pet shop it was developing mbd and was the only one that didnt sell, they had desiccated greens and a few dead adult cricket in its cage, I told the lady that it was goinf to die, she said tehy could give me a discount since her tail was crooked, but I convinced her to just give it to me and after a few days of force feeidng a watering and a calcium injection she was able to eat on her own and has been doing great ever since. But buying a sick reptile from a pet store ah even if you tell them you dont like how they do things its like a slap on the wrist and oh heres 50 bucks dont do it again... Its a sick cycle and as long as no one takes a stand were never gonna fix anything. I guess if I were a breeder before I worry about my bloodlines I'd worry about my customers, are my animals going to be cared for properly, and from what I've seen the answer is no, people dont seem to care enough... Most reptiles are sold to inexpirienced buyers who dont know the first thing about reptile husbandry and dont bother to find out before hand... I wish I could have a little zoo exibit and show people how to care for exotic pets properly, hand out caresheets or flyer with good link to great sites, I dont know I just wish there was something I could do..... ok im done.
Well, being as I'm only going to producing a small amount of dragons I think it will be easier to talk with the buyers before hand. Yes, 30 is a lot of beardies, but 30 is not really a lot of emails. When a person emails me asking about purchasing a beardie it would not be difficult to tag on a little copy paste beardie FAQ with the reply. Then I could further answer any questions they had about it in their reply. I know they may not listen, but its better than nothing. Additionally, a packet conataining in depth care instructions, breeding FAQ, bloodline information, as well as links to this forum, and a few other beardie sites could be sent along with the dragons after purchase. It wouldn't take much time to print up the packets and staple them. That would tell the owner everything they needed to know about their beardie as long as they did take the time to read it. Of course, they could call, or email me if anything else needed answering, or if there was something they didn't understand. I personally think that people do want to do the right thing by their pets. Most of them, at least. People don't go online looking for a breeder and pay $100, or more, just to mistreat and kill their dragons. I think most people have their heart in the right place, they just don't know what they're doing. Of course some people are still going to be crappy owners, but I think the majority wont. Most people, I think, do not mean to use improper care on their dragons. I think most people are just misinformed. If people were provided with instructions on proper care then I don't think there would be nearly as many problems. Maybe I'm just niave, though, maybe most people really don't care.
The best way to ensure any dragons you sell will be treated well is to provide good information to the people who buy them. Offer them a sound care sheet and lifetime support. Also, I think a lot of people buying pet store dragons are buying on impulse and not receiving proper care instructions. The dragons are usually too small to be sold yet and have all types of problems with stress and parasites. It is worth it to may the extra money for a healthy baby and save on vet bills. When people buy from a breeder on line the whole process takes longer. There are exceptions to both. there are a few fantastic pet stores and there are many breeders who sell bearded dragons too young and/or not well socialized. Your average beardie purchaser may not know about all of the great resources on line to answer questions and help you care for your beardie. The various forums have saved many little dragon lives. Amnesia, you will find there are breeders who will be happy to help with questions. Matt at Mystical Dragons and Randy at Alpha DragonZ have both been a great help to me. My male Herbie is from Matt, but I have not even purchased a dragon from Randy. I plan to one day. He has spent hours on the phone with me. You also will have breeders who show their true colors when they get nasty when you are persistent about needing to know the dragons' bloodlines. It is all educational and you will make some great friends along the way. Wendy
I do agree that the online community is doing good things and most people who buy a dragon online will want to take good care of it and will have direct access to good information, but the online community unfortunatly is not the majority. Most dragons are bought on impulse at crummy pet stores, sold in crappy condition and then they slowly die with improper care. I have seen good pet stores, but I have also seen crummy customers buying animals at good petstores, and the bottom line is profit, they are not doing to deny someone an animal even if they wont care for it. There needs to be some kind of govt. control on the pet trade, like licenses or somthing, I know they do it in australia but there they are a little to invasive...
I think that I'm just shocked about the pet stores I've been in here, because I just moved to this area about a year and a half ago, and the pet shop that I used to buy supplies from was very good. They were always informative, and I never noticed any animals being mistreated. One thing that I remember making me proud of that shop was when a shipment of small sulcuttas came in. The woman there was informing everyone about them. How they were the third largest land tortoise, needed lots of space, and could be very destructive. Not all pet shops are bad, just the majority.
I'm glad I found this thread. I've been debating inbreeeding in my head for about a week now. A lot of the breeders I've spoken with don't believe that its a problem. Others claim that they don't inbreed, but that's hard to believe. Unless they are doing a lot of DNA testing who's to say their animals aren't related even if they came from ten different sources. My thought is that inbreeding goes on in the wild. Just think about. Bearded Dragons aren't issued a geneology chart when they hatch out. If they are fortunate enough to reach maturity they breed any receptive mate they can find. Natural selection plays a major role in which animals breed not geneology. I have 1.2 Bearded Dragons from the same clutch. They have grown by leaps and bounds demonstrating some very positive traits. At 7.5 months they've all topped the 400 gram mark and are still growing. I don't intend on breedings this group as I know they are syblings. I will purchase another male to service the two females as well as two females to partner up with my current male. I too want mass on my dragons, but how many ads do you see out there claiming to be selling breeder age dragons that weigh less than 300 grams. I'm afraid that proper selection has been thrown out the window in exchange for mass production. Does "Geman Giant" mean anything anymore? Not if a breeder uses this label to make a quick sale. By eliminating natural selection I do believe that we are producing a weak strain of dragons. Maybe Bert Langerwerf has it right. Raise them outdoors in a natural climate allowing those animals who are the hardiest to breed. Ok I'll shut up now. I do tend to ramble.
